This week, Farai interviews Dr. Sayu Bhojwani, civic entrepreneur and founder of Women’s Democracy Lab, about what it takes to create a more inclusive democracy and what current intraparty tensions reveal about the election field ahead of the midterms. Then, we re-air a conversation from “One With Farai” featuring Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry and her 2011 book “Sister Citizen: Shame, Stereotypes, and Black Women in America.” And in this week’s segment of ‘Sippin’ the Political Tea’, Farai interviews Bobby Ghosh, Bloomberg Opinion columnist covering foreign affairs and Hagar Chemali, foreign policy expert and host of “Oh My World!” on YouTube, about the death of Queen Elizabeth II amidst the United Kingdom’s energy crisis.
Farai Chideya:
Hi, folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting the show if you're able. You can find out more at ourbodypolitic.com/donate. We're here for you, with you and because of you. Thank you. This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Young women of color are the most likely to talk politics, participate in elections and fight racism.
Farai Chideya:
That's a finding from a study conducted by Tufts University's Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement in 2020. In 2021, the number of women of color who served in Congress reached a record high of 52, and over 600 women of color are serving as state legislators. Today, we're approaching the halfway mark of Kamala Harris's historic first term as vice president, and drawing nearer to the 2022 midterm elections. Women of color continue to lead civic engagement and make their bids for office.
Farai Chideya:
But what happens both during elections and once these candidates are voted in? My next guest is Civic Entrepreneur and Democracy Futurist, Dr. Sayu Bhojwani. Her work over the past three decades has paved pathways to political power for immigrants and women of color in the US. I reached out to Sayu to talk about what a more inclusive democracy could look like, and what we could learn from current intraparty tensions and their impact on the election ahead of November. Hi, Sayu.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
Hi, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
It's great to be with you. You've started a number of different organizations, including the Women's Democracy Fund. Give us a little backgrounder on what you've worked on and what you're doing now.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
Sure. For over a decade, I have worked on creating a democracy that is for us, by us. And when I say for us, by us, I mean specifically, women of color and more broadly, people of color and immigrants. I ran the American Leaders, which when we started it in 2010, the conversation was around increasing representation. We thought if more of us were in office, then the system would work better. Then more of us got into office and we realized that it was the system that was broken.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
I started Women's Democracy Lab with my colleagues, Anathea Chino and Muthoni Wambu Kraal, to support women of color once we got into the system. In that part of the pipeline that's post-election, what is it like to serve in a system that doesn't want us there and wasn't designed for us? That's the work of Women's Democracy Lab.
Farai Chideya:
When you think about where we are today, how do you think of this era just in general? With all of your perspective, where's your head, where's your heart?
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
My heart is quite broken, I have to say, because I feel like we've made incremental gains, but that ultimately, we're in a pretty similar place to where we were 12 years ago when I started doing this work. I think that's largely because if you think about demographics writ large on the Republican side, they're very conscious of demographics either as a threat or an opportunity. On the Democrat side, it's as if demographics just don't exist. There's very little engagement, intentional strategy building.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
There's no reckoning, if you will, with the demographic changes by Democrats, including in terms of thinking about their own aging, white voters. They take for granted reliable, Black voters. I feel that my heart is broken in part, because we continue to be erased, made invisible or leveraged transactionally for electoral outcomes. As opposed to being seen for the complex human beings we are, with the complex interests and needs that we have.
Farai Chideya:
One thing I'm noticing is that there are a lot of generational divides within some of the traditional democratic constituencies. For example, a lot of Asian American communities, you have elders who are more conservative than younger voters. In Black communities, which have long been the term is sometimes used, captured voters by the Democratic Party.
Farai Chideya:
I see a lot of tensions between Gen Z's and younger millennials, who are like, "I'm completely done with the two-party system. I hate them all." Older voters who are like, "Pull up your big girl, big boy pants. We've got to hold our nose and vote." There's a lot of tensions that flow across generational lines. Are you seeing any of that?
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
For sure. I think it's a place where groups like the Working Families Party and the Democratic Socialists of America, have been able to make some ground in the populations that are disillusioned with the two-party system, but are still willing to be engaged. Obviously, there's also a group of people who just don't want to be engaged at all, right?
Farai Chideya:
Right.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
We can't continue to tell young people to vote because voting in and of itself, that one act is not what's going to create the society and the systems that we want to see. This is why I think women of color are so important, because we understand year round organizing, we understand these intersections.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
But I think to my point about demographics, there is this group of neglected, high-potential voters, younger people, new immigrants, folks who have not registered to vote in the past, where I think there is an opportunity to engage.
Farai Chideya:
Let's dive into some of the specific races and themes here. In June of this year, Georgia State Representative Bee Nguyen won the Democratic runoff for Secretary of State.
Farai Chideya:
Nguyen is the first Vietnamese American to serve in the Georgia General Assembly, and she's going to face GOP incumbent, Brad Raffensperger, in the November elections. Here she is on MSNBC's The ReidOut discussing voter suppression in Georgia.
Bee Nguyen:
This is an all hands-on deck moment, in which you've got to check your voter registration. If you get anything in the mail, you've got to call Voter Protection and make sure you're taking all the right steps to make sure that when you show up in November, you can actually vote.
Farai Chideya:
Nguyen expressed concern about not having a fair chance in the upcoming elections. In that same interview we heard` she brought up that in 2021, Georgia Republicans passed Senate Bill 202. Some people call it Jim Crow 2.0. It has new rules making it harder to vote by provisional ballot.
Farai Chideya:
Criminalization of handing out water to voters in line, and recent increase of rejected voter applications. Sayu, what advice would you give to people who are concerned about fair play and current election laws in a state like Georgia?
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
I think it's important for those of us, who have had "easy access to the ballot", to remember how expensive voting is for many, many Americans and certainly for Georgians in very specific ways. Getting to the polls, taking time off from work, standing in line, learning about who is on the ballot. All of those take investments of time and resources. I think that acknowledging what it takes for someone to participate, is a first step to meeting them where they are, and to not making assumptions about who will show up and why.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
The other piece of advice that I would have for those of us who were very engaged during the Trump era and now think that the main threat to our democracy is over. Is that for women of color, people of color and immigrants, that threat has always been there and that we can't take anything for granted. What we look at with these state races are elections that are won by 100 and 200 votes. I think not taking the vote for granted. Recognizing that our democracy's under threat all the time, and that certain people within our democracy have never been able to participate fully.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
And meeting people where they are, are three important ways to approach this and the next couple of elections, which I think are going to be really hard, in terms of how difficult it will be for people of color to participate, and the impact of those elections.
Farai Chideya:
We've talked a little bit about the Democratic Party. There are a number of Republican candidates who oppose Trump and Trumpism, which factors into why a small group of Democrats favor Raffensperger over Nguyen. There's a lot of outside political organizations too.
Farai Chideya:
The Republican Accountability Project is a group that's invested millions of dollars into opposing what they call election conspiracy candidates. In August, they launched a $3 million television and digital ad campaign in seven critical swing states. Here's one of their ads.
Pat:
My name's Pat and I'm from Savannah, Georgia. I have been a Republican since I was 18 years old, and I had to leave my party. Everything is a conspiracy. Then we ended up at January 6th, and I literally just sick to my stomach now.
Pat:
You know what I mean? I have nowhere to go to find a candidate that I feel like is a true Republican. I really feel like we are literally losing the party.
Farai Chideya:
Another ad from the project spotlights Representative Liz Cheney.
Liz Cheney:
Everyone close to President Trump repeatedly told him that his claims of a stolen election were false. As Americans, we all have a duty to ensure that what happened on January 6th never happens again.
Farai Chideya:
Representative Cheney lost the primary for the Wyoming house seat. The following day, she launched a political action committee called The Great Task, with the explicit goal of keeping Trump out of the White House. Some other states that are in play in terms of these tensions between Trumpists and Never Trump Republicans, are Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin.
Farai Chideya:
Specifically around these messages from within the Republican Party and the Lincoln Project is another one, how much do you think they work? There's some evidence that the Lincoln Project didn't move the needle a lot. That it created some great ads, but it didn't necessarily change GOP minds. How do you think of those questions?
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
I think that it's the idea of reaching into people's deepest fears, which in the case of some Republicans Trump is their deepest fear, does work very well. It can be very motivating to people. The concern that I have on the Republican side, is that they're extremely aware of demographic changes and the potential to engage certain groups of voters within communities of color. I think we do ourselves a disservice as a country if we make assumptions about communities of color as a monolith.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
Whether we think about women of color, Latino voters, Black voters, Asian American voters, I think this Republican Party messaging that is Trumpers and Never Trumpers, still doesn't get to the heart of the intersectional needs of communities of color. Our concerns and needs as women of color, far transcend the election of Trump or someone like Trump, that we have deeper systemic issues that need to be addressed.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
I think these messages work in a moment when large groups of voters feel neglected by Democrats. The substance behind those messages is obviously not significant. Whether we have a Trump or not, we still have a big, big, big gaping hole that needs to be filled, in terms of creating a democracy that is responsive to the needs of people of color, and particularly women of color. It's the reason why I think that post Trump, we've seen this divide.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
Those people who think that once we don't have Trump in the White House, we're going to be fine. Then women of color and more broadly, communities of color who continue to organize on the ground, because literally our lives are at stake.
Farai Chideya:
That was Dr. Sayu Bhojwani, founder of the Women's Democracy Lab and New American Leaders. Coming up next, I continue our conversation with Dr. Bhojwani about what it's going to take to create a more inclusive democracy. Plus later, what the death of Queen Elizabeth II means for the United Kingdom and for the history of colonialism. That's on Our Body Politic. Welcome back to Our Body Politic. If you're just joining us, we're talking to Dr. Sayu Bhojwani about the dynamics in the upcoming 2022 midterm elections.
Farai Chideya:
Specifically, on how the Republican and Democratic parties are approaching appealing to voters of color and immigrants. Dr. Bhojwani is the creator of the organizations New American Leaders and Women's Democracy Lab. The second one supports women of color past their elections and into local and national office. Let's continue with the conversation. The Dobbs ruling has certainly mobilized a number of people who support abortion access, Republicans, Democrats, third-party folks to step up to the plate.
Farai Chideya:
It seems to have moved President Joe Biden out of a category of having extremely low poll numbers. His poll numbers have risen, certainly not the highest that any president has seen but higher than they've been in months. I'm thinking about how that plays against the backdrop of some of the baggage that President Biden has brought with him. Former senate aide, Tara Reade, accused Biden of sexually assaulting her in 1993. In May of 2020, you wrote an article called Joe Biden is Not Our Savior. Let's revisit that a little bit. Here's Tara Reade in an interview from March 2020.
Tara Reade:
I was trying to just get over the shock of it because I looked up to him. He was supposed to be a champion of women, and I was so thrilled to be at that office and so honored. It shattered my life and changed the trajectory of my whole career.
Farai Chideya:
That was from Tara Reade's appearance on Democracy Now! Then in 1991, Dr. Anita Hill testified and formally accused current Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment. Biden, then senator from Delaware, led an arguably skeptical Senate judiciary committee, all white men who eventually appointed Thomas to the highest court in the land.
Farai Chideya:
There's been a lot since then, with Anita Hill continuing to advocate for women. Talking about how Senator Biden at the time in her view, failed to do an adequate job of those confirmation hearings. How do you perceive President Biden now against the backdrop of the Dobbs decision and gender?
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
I think I would stand by what I say that we can't look to any one person as our savior. One of the reasons that we get any gains that we're getting, is because women of color continue to organize. I don't think we would have Ketanji Brown Jackson on the Supreme Court if women of color didn't organize. I think one of the things that Republicans do very well, is focus on both the messenger and the message. They always know their message and they identify the right messenger for that message.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
I think that what happened in 2020 frankly, is that we, as a community of Democrats, understood that Joe Biden was the right messenger. It's because of that, people threw their support behind him. I think he's doing a good job of listening to the messages that he's hearing from his team and presumably from Americans at large. I think that we will always do ourselves a disservice if our focus continues to be on the presidency. In fact, I think going back to the question where we started this conversation.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
One of the things that I wish would change, is that we think about states and organizing in those states beyond their capacity to help us win the presidential election. The entire focus on Georgia and Arizona, for example, in 2020 is around whether we could elect a president with the support of those states, but in fact, what is happening in those states also matters. What is happening to those people in those states does matter. The under-told story of that election is the number of seats that were lost in those legislatures and what that means for redistricting.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
What it's going to mean for votes on abortion rights. I think that the larger point of how our conversation on democracy tends to focus primarily on the presidency and Congress, how do we broaden that conversation to really address the needs that most people have, which are dictated by state and local laws?
Farai Chideya:
I want to move on to another area where you have a lot of expertise, which is immigration. In July, the Supreme Court temporarily blocked the Biden administration from implementing a policy, that would prioritize deportation of people in the country who pose the greatest safety risk and who are here without legal status.
Farai Chideya:
The court will hear arguments on the case in December. You were New York City's first commissioner of Immigrant Affairs. Can you share your thoughts on what Biden proposed and what the state of play is on issues like this?
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
Yeah. I think this is another area where there's been so little movement since I've been commissioner. There have been four presidents and the movement on immigration as a policy issue has not really shifted. We're still seeing bandaids. Still stuck in the conversation around who is really seen as an American and who do we open our doors to.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
When we compare what is happening with movement of people across the border in relationship to how we handled Ukrainian refugees earlier this year, you see a distinct difference in who we are willing to bring in and accept, and take care of, if you will, and help get on their feet. I think that the deep underlying racism continues to inform the way that we think about immigration policy. The otherness of immigrants continues to be a pain point.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. I can't help but think of the Trump administration where you had kids in cages, but also in the Obama administration, some organizers called President Obama the deporter in chief. It seems like there has been no golden era of immigration in a long time.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
I agree with that. The biggest immigration reform that we've had in recent years was in the 1980s under Reagan. Going back to some of these conversations we're having around party engagement of voters. In my work, I have often met formerly undocumented immigrants who were Republicans for many years, often until Obama came into office.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
There is an opportunity for any or both, or all the parties to make movement on immigration. That could be a meaningful way, frankly, to expand our voter base. I think there's an assumption that's always made that these 11 million undocumented Americans, if they got a pathway to citizenship, would vote Democrat. I don't think that's what the current data on voter trends shows.
Farai Chideya:
There's also good news that you help create. Your organization, another one of the organizations that you founded, New American Leaders, supports first and second generation Americans running for public office.
Farai Chideya:
In 2020, 114 of your alumni ran for office, and 65% won their elections. This year for the second election cycle in a row, record-breaking numbers of women of color are running for office. What are your hopes there for women of color in the midterms?
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
My hopes are that many, many women of color will get elected because as I said at the beginning of this conversation, that if we continue to see only incremental gains, we're not going to be able to change the system so that it works for us. I think the more of us who are there, the more we'll be able to actually create policy, that understand the through line between reproductive justice and economic justice.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
The relationship between poverty and maternal health. I think that women of color are the best messengers for those policies and the best makers of those policies. I feel fairly optimistic, I would say, about America as a democracy and a place for people like you and me. I just think that as many things in this country, it will come at a pretty steep price to women of color.
Farai Chideya:
We're definitely tracking some of that. The threats of violence that are coming out against elected officials, and candidates and other people who are serving democracy.
Farai Chideya:
We're also tracking the great work of people like you to get new voices and new faces into the pipeline. Sayu, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Sayu Bhojwani:
Thank you for having me.
Farai Chideya:
That was Dr. Sayu Bhojwani, founder of the Women's Democracy Lab and New American Leaders. Now, I want to continue the conversation about women of color and political power, by reaching back into the archives to my conversation with Professor Melissa Harris-Perry on a previous show I hosted, One with Farai. Professor Harris-Perry is the Maya Angelou Presidential Chair at Wake Forest University in political science and gender studies. She's also now the host and managing editor of WNYC's The Takeaway.
Farai Chideya:
I'm dipping back into a conversation we had about her 2011 book, Sister Citizen: Shame, Stereotypes and Black Women in America, focused on how Black women navigate power. Let's listen. Melissa, I just want to say it's great to talk with you again. I'd like to start out with the dedication of the book, Sister Citizen, which came out a couple of years ago. Can you just read the dedication for us?
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
Sure. The dedication is for James, who is my Tea Cake, except the part where she shoots him. For Blair, who is my Charlotte, except the part where she dies young. For Parker, who is my everything and always will be.
Farai Chideya:
I thought that was so beautiful. From the beginning, it sets this tone of connectedness to Zora Neale Hurston and Black literature. Tell me, you go in Sister Citizen, whose subtitle is, Shame, Stereotypes and Black Women in America.
Farai Chideya:
You go into a deep dive with Zora Neale Hurston's work on Their Eyes Were Watching God and tying it to the political life of Black women. First, unpack that dedication for us.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
Well, so James is my husband. When I revisited Their Eyes Were Watching God, as I was thinking about the question of Black women's politics in America, I revisited the book. Part of what happens is towards the end of it, she marries her true love, Tea Cake. She goes through basically about three marriages. Tea Cake is her final marriage, he's younger than her. He takes her to the Florida Everglades and they work extremely hard.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
They survive a hurricane, but then ultimately, he's bitten by a rabid dog and dies, because he gets rabies and she ultimately has to shoot him. There were so many things about how Jamie feels about Tea Cake, that felt like how I feel about my husband, James. Initially, I just said all the time, "James is my Tea Cake." James's father, who is a retired English professor, started saying to him, "James, you know she shoots Tea Cake at the end."
Farai Chideya:
I love that.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
James was like, "What?"
Farai Chideya:
Watch your back, son.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
Right. For me, it was saying all of the things that are the loving and the building, and the courageous and the working hard parts, that's the part that makes him my Tea Cake. But that I have no interest in ending his life at the end.
Farai Chideya:
Let's go a little bit further into Sister Citizen. I was fascinated by the way you did a deep reading of Their Eyes Were Watching God. And related it to this idea of the political life of Black women not being just about ballot boxes and elections, but bodies and love and community, and all these things. Explain a little bit more about the book and how it relates to some of the themes in Zora Neale Hurston's work.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
When I first started writing Sister Citizen, I was happily married to my first husband and very much trained as an empirical quantitative researcher. I really started the project thinking that it would be about Black women who hold office, and how Black women vote, and how they engage in the party system. Then I went through a painful divorce. I went through some pretty hard health crises.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
I moved to a new city where I felt very isolated in a lot of ways. As my own experiences of angst but also of joy begin to inform the work, it was less and less about what we typically think of as politics. And more and more about how the life experiences that we have internally, actually impact who we are as citizens. More than anything it was perhaps becoming a single parent. Once I was an African American single mom, that framework.
Farai Chideya:
A much maligned category.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
Exactly, right? That category, that identity, which I never thought I would be. I did not personally malign it myself, but also had worked really hard my whole life not to be in that category, suddenly found myself, "Oh, I'm a Black, single mama."
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
And understanding how, if you knew my narrative, you'd have one set of assumptions about who I was. But if you knew that piece of me, Black, single mama, you would have a whole different set of assumptions. All of the political meaning that came along with that, really informed what this book is.
Farai Chideya:
You also go into an analysis of three archetypes. You do some qualitative research in focus groups with Black women, and go into three archetypes/stereotypes. The Mammy, the Jezebel, the hot to trot woman, and Sapphire, who's the sassy, angry, Black woman.
Farai Chideya:
You go into how many different Black women feel that they are put in these categories in their interactions with other people, Black and non-Black people. What does that do to us as Black women?
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
The metaphor I use in the book is the idea of the crooked room. There was this research after World War II about our perceptual field. This research is not about race or politics, or gender or any of that. It's just research about how we orient ourselves in a physical space. What they do is they take a subject, put them in a room that was dark, and when they flipped the light on, all of the angles of the room were off. Instead of parallel floor and ceiling, and walls and 90 degree angles, everything was off.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
It was literally crooked. Your job as the subject, was to figure out how to stand upright in this room where your entire perceptual field was off from your expectations. I read this piece of cognitive psychology research and I thought, "Man, that is just what it's like to be a Black woman in America. You are constantly getting this feedback from the world that says you're angry, you're hypersexual, you are a mammy meant to take care of others."
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
Certainly, some of it comes from what we might think of as a white supremacist racial culture, but a lot of it comes from within Black communities. What it does is just as in the research, where some people are very good about finding the authentic upright no matter what that perceptual field is doing. But the vast majority of people can tilt themselves, some of them as much as 45 degrees on an angle, but perceive themselves as standing upright because everything around them is distorted.
Farai Chideya:
Everything plays into the trick of the mind.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
Absolutely. If you are a Black woman growing up in a world that tells you, "You are hypersexualized," then you might do one of two things. You might conform towards that hypersexuality and perceive it as an authentic expression of self, when in fact, it is simply conforming to these expectations. Or knowing that you're in a crooked room, you might go too far the other way and try to be hyper-respectable, and never wear red. Always keep yourself asexualized, so as to not create that stereotype.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
Again, you experience it as authentic, even if in fact, what you're doing is overcorrecting. Part of what I'm doing is looking at how in our politics, we constantly either conform to or overcorrect for these negative images. Anger is the big one. We have a right to be angry about all kinds of things in America, all of the forms of inequality that Black women experience. But we often don't make use of that anger politically, because there is this stereotype that Black women just mad. They just mad about something, they mad about nothing. Their anger doesn't have any meaningful content.
Farai Chideya:
You talk in the book about a term in a work by Hagel, it's German, Anerkennung, which is mutually affirming recognition. You go into a pretty fascinating analysis of this concept of mutually affirming recognition among members of a civic society like America, and how it's given to some and withheld from others. How do you think that relates to where we are today in American politics?
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
When we think about inequality and we think about fairness, we tend to think of it exclusively as a resource distribution question. Do you have equal access to education? Do we have equal opportunities to build wealth? Do we have equal opportunities to earn fair income? Those are resource distribution questions and they are critically important. But even as we deal with the question of resource distribution, we have to recognize that the other part of a democracy is recognition.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
This Hegelian notion of wanting to be seen. And that for members of marginalized groups, the difficulty is you both want to be seen as an individual, but you want your individual identity to be connected to the group. Most African Americans, not all, but most African Americans, are disturbed by the idea of colorblindness. The idea that in order to see me as human, you would have to be blind to my racial identity. I want you to see me, I want you to see who I am.
Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry:
I want you to see the music I listen to and the kinds of books I read, but I also want you to know I'm Black and to know the ways in which my Blackness informs who I am.
Farai Chideya:
That was Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry in a previously recorded conversation on One with Farai. Harris-Perry is now the host and managing editor of WNYC's The Takeaway. Coming up next, our weekly roundtable, Sippin' the Political Tea, gets into the death of Queen Elizabeth II and the British monarchy's role in colonialism.
Farai Chideya:
That's with foreign policy experts, Hagar Chemali, host of Oh My World and Bloomberg Opinion columnist covering foreign affairs, Bobby Ghosh. You're listening to Our Body Politic. Each week on the show, we bring you a roundtable called Sippin' the Political Tea. Joining me this week is Hagar Chemali, foreign policy expert and host of Oh My World on YouTube. Welcome back, Hagar.
Hagar Chemali:
Thanks so much, Farai. It's great to be here.
Farai Chideya:
We've also got Bobby Ghosh, Bloomberg Opinion columnist covering foreign affairs. Hi, Bobby.
Bobby Ghosh:
Hi, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
This week we're discussing the death of Queen Elizabeth II, the British monarchy's role in colonialism, and the energy crisis throughout Europe and especially, affecting the economy in the UK. I want to start with the most recent development. Last Thursday, September 8th, 2022, Queen Elizabeth II died at Balmoral Castle, one of the royal families estates in Scotland. Having ruled for 70 years, seven decades, her death has elicited a mix of feelings, ranging from grief to gratitude, to critiques of British colonialism.
Farai Chideya:
One reign has ended and another has begun. Bobby, you recently lived in London. What was your touchpoint for the British monarchy when you lived there? Is this something that people talk about on a regular basis? Does it only come up when there's something in the tabloids? Let's start with that. How do you think people react in general times to the monarch?
Bobby Ghosh:
Well, I was living literally across the river from the Tower of London, just by Tower Bridge. The royal family was very much in the discussion during the time that I was there. But in the time that I was there, it felt like Brits had become very comfortable at having the queen be their head of state, the queen represent them. There are a couple of reasons for that, one is sheer longevity. She's been there so long, she was like part of the furniture.
Bobby Ghosh:
Most Britains, in fact, most people alive anywhere in the world, do not recall a time when there wasn't Queen Elizabeth on the throne, so there's a lot to be said for longevity. But perhaps the most important thing is that when Britains look at what the alternatives would be, they begin to appreciate the royalty having a crown head more. As my British friends always told me when I discussed this with them, that consider the alternative.
Bobby Ghosh:
If we didn't have the queen representing the country, we would have a President Boris Johnson or a President Liz Truss. That's not something that Brits necessarily want. I came to appreciate the value of the queen to the Brits. I think the outpouring of grief that we have seen since her death, underlines that. That the Brits really came to appreciate having her there and dearly, dearly miss her.
Farai Chideya:
Hagar, what did the queen's death call up for you? Also, Charles, Queen Elizabeth's eldest child, is now taking the throne as King Charles III. Any thoughts both on the queen and on this shift in power?
Hagar Chemali:
I have to admit that my first reaction was a bit more personal in nature, and that's because I impersonate the queen often on my show, and enjoy doing her accent and poking fun where I can. I just don't believe that King Charles will be as fun to impersonate. We'll have to see though. Also, as you know, Farai, I look at things always from an international affairs angle, a national security angle. Really tried to think about not only what she represented to British stability and British national identity, but what were some of her greatest achievements?
Hagar Chemali:
Because the United Kingdom is our strongest partner. We pursue every national security informed policy step with them in lockstep. Who the monarch is, who represents the United Kingdom is important. She oversaw a lot of changes. There are moments I think of that I really see somebody who tried to usher and change but slowly, and tried to modernize the monarchy in a very slow way, but she had her small successes.
Farai Chideya:
Bobby, one thing that struck me was when the royal family goes to Balmoral, they're going to Scotland. Scotland doesn't really love being part of the royal arc of history. There's a lot of road rash there and some continuing calls for independence from the UK.
Farai Chideya:
That is a very close neighbor like Ireland, that has had a complex relationship with Britain. I want to go into colonialism broadly, but let's start with the United Kingdom itself.
Bobby Ghosh:
Well, the Scots have mixed feelings, I think it's fair to say. We know this because there was a few years ago, a referendum on this very question about whether Scotland should remain in the union. The Scots buy a small margin voted to remain part of the United Kingdom, and therefore, voted to remain subjects of the queen. I've heard both sides of that argument by Scots who say, "This is the 21st century. What business do we have, having a queen be the head of our state?"
Bobby Ghosh:
But my feeling and judging by that referendum, is that quite a large number of Scots were comfortable with the idea. The big question is how much of that comfort had to do with the person of this particular monarchy? How much of that had to do with Elizabeth specifically? We may have a chance to find out because there is now once again rumbling among Scottish politicians, who are in favor of separatism, asking for another referendum.
Bobby Ghosh:
If that referendum happens, it will happen during the reign of King Charles III. We'll see if the Scots feel the same about King Charles as they did about Queen Elizabeth.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Sippin' the Political Tea on Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. This week we're discussing Queen Elizabeth's reign, colonialism and the UK's energy crisis with Hagar Chemali, host of Oh My World on YouTube, and Bobby Ghosh, Bloomberg Opinion columnist.
Farai Chideya:
Bobby, can you talk about India a little bit? There's been a widespread Twitter posting talking about the theft of wealth from India. The starvation of the population, the intellectual impoverishment of the 200 years of British rule really led to many different levels of trauma. Can you talk a little bit about India as one other framework?
Bobby Ghosh:
There's no way of denying the enormous trauma, the enormous looting of national wealth that took place during that colonial period. Literally, the looting of wealth and also the denial of opportunity, the arrested development of India's evolution over 200 years. At the time that India finally achieved independence from the British Empire, this was in 1947, the life expectancy of the Indians was less than 40. The life expectancy of British citizens was double that.
Bobby Ghosh:
That tells you a story right there in itself of the enormous damage that was done. Millions and millions of Indians paid with their lives for being citizens of or subjects of the crown. Indians definitely look back with anger, look back with regret. There's also calls from India for reparations from Britain, for all that Britain took from India over those hundreds of years. But I think for many Indians, they can make a distinction between this queen and all her ancestors did, because we know that by the time she comes to power, she doesn't really have power.
Bobby Ghosh:
She's simply a figurehead at the top of this political system, that the villains of the piece are the prime ministers, the elected governments. Ironically, the democratically elected leaders of Britain do far more damage in the colonies than the crown heads. We don't blame Queen Elizabeth for it. We blame Winston Churchill.
Farai Chideya:
It strikes me that this moment is really in addition to being a chance to look at the queen, to look at the arc of history and the arc of the empire. Hagar, turning to you, again, the queen took the throne in 1952. She was born in 1926, the longest reigning monarch in British history and in her lifetime.
Farai Chideya:
India, South Africa and Kenya gained independence. Barbados removed to the queen as head of state. What do you think about the role of colonialism in the world, British colonialism, and how the queen is or is not part of that arc?
Hagar Chemali:
It's a fascinating time when you think about what must have been normalized back then when she was, certainly when she was born, certainly before her, of course, and when she came to the throne versus what is "normal" now, and how we all view the world. To stress on Bobby's point about the separation of Queen Elizabeth from the history of the monarchy and what that monarchy represented. Queen Elizabeth II was the first British monarch to address the US Congress. She addressed the US Congress in 1991.
Hagar Chemali:
It was very well received and it's a little bit symbolic. This is the monarch that we, in the United States, I say we, obviously this was a long time ago. We fought a war against. That we had a revolution against. That we sought independence from and succeeded. It says a lot to have a representative of that monarchy speak to your now Democratic independent government and she did and was respected. I think they chose this we are all grappling with the real changing of the times, certainly in the United States, certainly Britain.
Hagar Chemali:
You see it everywhere. For example, in Canada, you see governments and leaders coming to terms with history. Trying to find ways to teach our history, the good, the bad, and the ugly in a more transparent and honest fashion. There are a lot of hiccups, as we all know here in the United States, and a lot of fights over it. It's caused things to become very political as you know. But there is a lot of effort toward that, a lot of recognition that had not existed if you think of even 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
Hagar Chemali:
I think that what you're seeing now, when I saw what happened in Barbados, for example, the removal of the head of state. And frankly, how amicable that was between Barbados and the UK government. It shows that there is this effort really to reckon with the past, to move ahead to modernize as much as possible. I guess really to continue overseeing a shrinking of Britain, I believe that King Charles III will continue to pursue that. Because the thing that we're seeing most with him is that he would like to see a streamlined monarchy, a smaller monarchy.
Hagar Chemali:
We know that's what he's always believed. When it comes to colonialism, I am curious to see, will we see it in how history is taught, but might we see it in other ways? Are we going to see issues related to reparations and such come up? I don't know. I can't speculate as to how things are like that are going to go, but you certainly see more discussion of it now.
Farai Chideya:
So just to continue a little bit with the question of colonialism, the Twitters have been a flame. There was this tweet from Karen Attiah, who's a contributor to the show. "Black and brown people around the world who were subject to horrendous cruelties and economic deprivation under British colonialism, are allowed to have feelings about Queen Elizabeth. After all, they were her subjects too."
Farai Chideya:
There has been a backlash to tweets like that. Bobby, what do you make of the interplay of people saying, "You can't talk about this right now." Not the queen's death itself, but this fractious tussle over who gets to say what when.
Bobby Ghosh:
Some folks on Twitter are pushing back against Karen's right to express herself. I think she has every right to express her reservations. Why should we not explore all aspects of what the queen came to represent? In fact, I think that would be healthy.
Bobby Ghosh:
I think this is a good opportunity for a reassessment of the monarchy and its role around the world. My assessment, my analysis is that the monarchy as it exists today, has been delinked from a lot of the worst excesses of the monarchy in the past. But other people may have different opinions and the more opinions the better.
Farai Chideya:
Hagar, any brief thoughts on that?
Hagar Chemali:
Well, I agree with Bobby on this one. I am a big believer in people having their own opinions and sharing them, and opening the eyes of everybody. I actually believe also that we are allowed to separate Queen Elizabeth II from the past of the monarchy, its behavior, its actions and what it represented, and yet still have these feelings rush in. For example, I don't know that we have these conversations daily when Queen Elizabeth II was living.
Hagar Chemali:
Her death has conjured this up, has forced people to think about the monarchies past, its history. I think that's a good thing. I think it's good for us to be honest and to know about its history. I think it's good, by the way, for the monarchy itself, especially if it wants a successful future for King Charles himself to look at its past and be honest about it as well.
Farai Chideya:
An entirely different lens is also what the media pays attention to. Renee Graham of the Boston Globe, who's also been on this show, pointed out that ABC, NBC, and CBS were all airing Charles's first speech as king, but none of them aired President Biden's prime time speech on extremism. What do you make of the media's choices?
Hagar Chemali:
I have a lot of thoughts in general on how the media has what it's targeting, how it makes its business. But when it comes to the US president making any statement, whether it be extremism or otherwise, I think all of the US media outlets have a responsibility to share that.
Hagar Chemali:
Because they have a responsibility as a media outlet to share the truth, and the words of our leader, whomever that leader might be, to the public. Whatever statements President Trump made, all of the cable networks shared those statements. It's really irresponsible and almost criminal, frankly, for media outlets to try and censor the US president.
Farai Chideya:
Bobby, not everything is about the monarchy. The UK's energy and economic issues and its government have been a focus for local and international news.
Farai Chideya:
The UK has an incredible arc of inflation. There are energy questions and it has a new Prime Minister Liz Truss. Can you give us a sense of what's going on there?
Bobby Ghosh:
Well, yes, thanks to the war between Russia and Ukraine, gas prices around the world have escalated dramatically. In Europe and especially in Britain, the cost of heating homes has escalated dramatically because of this war. Liz Truss, who has just become prime minister just last week, her first policy measure has been to announce an enormous 30 billion pound aid package to freeze energy costs for ordinary citizens. This is designed to try and take some of the heat, no pun intended, off a sense of real panic in the British population.
Bobby Ghosh:
For now, I think the death of the queen has distracted most Britains from a discussion about energy crisis, as well as their inflation problems but that won't last very long. I think it's only a matter of days, maybe weeks before people finish this period of national grieving over the queen, and begin once again to pay attention to what they call checkbook issues, issues close to the pocket.
Farai Chideya:
Well, we're going to wrap there. Certainly, plenty to talk about and so grateful that you talked about it with us. Thanks, Hagar.
Hagar Chemali:
Thank you so much, Farai. It's always a pleasure.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks, Bobby.
Bobby Ghosh:
Thanks for having me. A real pleasure.
Farai Chideya:
That was Bobby Ghosh, Bloomberg Opinion columnist covering foreign affairs, and Hagar Chemali, foreign policy expert and host of Oh My World on YouTube.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm host and executive producer, Farai Chideya. Nina Spensley is also executive producer. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister and Traci Caldwell are our booking producers. Emily J. Daly and Steve Lack are our producers. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Kelsey Kudak is our fact checker.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Lauren Schild and Hannah Looney and engineered by Carter Martin, Archie Moore, and Adam Rooner.
Farai Chideya:
This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.