More than fifty years after Title IX, we take a wider look at the treatment and coverage of female and transgender athletes. At the close of a dramatic NCAA women’s championship, Natasha Alford, Senior Correspondent at The Grio, sits in for Farai Chideya to talk about Black women athletes, college sports, and sports journalism.
Natasha Alford [00:00:02] Hi, folks. We're so glad you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you haven't yet, remember to follow us on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have time, please leave us a review. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. You can also reach out to us on Instagram and Twitter @OurBodyPolitic. We're here for you, with you and because of you, so keep letting us know what's on your mind. We'd also love for you to join in financially supporting the show if you're able. You can find out more at OurBodyPolitic.com/donate. Thanks for listening.
This is Our Body Politic and guest host Natasha Alford, senior correspondent at The Grio, sitting in for Farai Chideya. It's been more than 50 years since the passing of Title IX, the federal law that protects students from sex based discrimination. And so much has changed for the better. But there's still a lot of room for progress in women's sports, especially when it comes to how Black women and transgender athletes are criticized by the media. How do we keep making progress for these athletes at the college and professional level and in the way they're covered in the press? We turn first to Jemelle Hill, an Emmy Award winning journalist who covers sports at the intersection of race, gender and politics. She's reported from the Olympics and the NBA playoffs and was an ESPN columnists. Jemellewas named Journalist of the Year by the National Association of Black Journalists in 2018 for her outstanding contribution to sports journalism. And she currently hosts the two time ACP Image Award winning podcast, Jemelle Hill is Unbothered. Welcome back to the show, Jemelle.
Jemelle Hill [00:01:48] Thanks for having me. Appreciate you.
Natasha Alford [00:01:50] Of course. It's great to have you. So, you know, the last time you were on the show, you talked about your book Uphill: A Memoir, which, you know, I love. It was so dynamic. It was inspiring. But a lot has happened since. So just catch us up. What have you been working on recently?
Jemelle Hill [00:02:05] Well, you know, I'm pretty knee deep in this Colin Kaepernick documentary that I'm executive producing that's directed by Spike Lee. So doing that and continuing the podcast and I'm also still writing for The Atlantic. I have a podcast network on Spotify called the Unbothered Network, which centers Black women. So, yeah, I mean, as always, I'm good for keeping about ten jobs.
Natasha Alford You know, you mention the Atlantic. I saw this piece that you wrote, Angel Reese Meets The Same Old Stereotypes and it opens us up for this conversation today. We know there's been a lot of controversy about the women's NCAA basketball championship and Louisiana State University players, Angel Reese in particular. So if anybody has been out the loop, catch us up on what's happening.
Jemelle Hilll Well, Angel Reese is one of the best players in women's college basketball. And this was a great matchup that everybody was looking forward to because it's Andrew Reese, LSU against Iowa, the Iowa Hawkeyes and Caitlin Clark. Caitlin Clark was national player of the year, best player in women's college basketball, and Andrew Reese is one of the biggest personalities also in women's college basketball. She talks trash. She's in your face. And it's not unlike how we often see men play like there's no real difference. Caitlin Clark also talks trash, you know, because she's very confident in her game. And what happened was there was a moment LSU had, you know, the game was well in hand. They were going to win their first women's basketball national championship. And Angel Reese does a gesture to Caitlin Clark that is called that You can't see me gesture. This is a gesture that John Cena, the wrestler turned actor, popularized when he was one of the biggest names in sports or one of the biggest names certainly in professional wrestling. And you just wave your hand in front of your face like you can't see me because I'm so good. That's supposed to be the point of it. So she did this the Caitlyn card, in part because turnabout is fair play. And with Caitlyn Clark, you know, a few games prior to that, when they played against Louisville, she scored 40 plus points. It was a hell of a performance. But she did that to Louisville. She said, You guys, me. All right. And when she did it, John Cena tweeted her it was embraced. People loved it. Angel Reese gave her a dose of her own medicine. Caitlin Clark, that is, and the reaction to Angel Reese doing it. A Black woman was much different than it was by Caitlyn Clark. She got called every name in the book, criticized from end to end. And it just really, as I wrote about in The Atlantic, brought about how perceptions of Black women being overly aggressive or the fact that when we're confident, some would even say cocky, how we get treated versus how when everybody else does. And so it was a social experiment that nobody expected that happened that really forced a lot of people to kind of really look at themselves. A lot of people told on themselves with their reaction to how both players, you know, talk trash in a moment of glory.
Natasha Alford [00:05:13] When you say people told on themselves, I think we have to dig even deeper. Right. Because people think just because you don't say the N-word or you don't use a racial epithet, that somehow racism is not laced into, you know, the tone and the word choice of reactions. And some of these reactions were so out of pocket, people reserved a special kind of vitriol for her. And you say that this is an old but consistent story. So what do you think the role of racism plays in moments like this?
Jemelle Hill [00:05:46] In not just race, but gender. So there's some intersectionality that's happening here, too, because, you know, in general, regardless of your ethnicity, there is a way that some people believe women should play, just like there's a way that some people believe women should behave. Right. And I did use purposely the word behave. The modern game for women is very different because of the gains made by Title IX. The participation of girls and women in sports is almost equal to boys and men in sports. And because of that, of course, women are, you know, the athleticism we're seeing, the competitiveness, the fierceness, again, all things that men are often praised for when they start see women doing some of the same things, then it's a problem. I can give you so many examples of men like, you know, just showing out because… and I don't have a problem with it at all. I'm consistent. I like it all because I think it adds entertainment value in the game. But don't sit there and applaud Steph Curry shimmying and then when Angel Reese and Caitlin Clarke do the “you can't see me” then you got a problem with it because you feel like is somehow unladylike or is unbecoming of a female athlete to do that. So then there's that bucket of it. And then as you said, there's this sizzling undercurrent of race that is in the language. You know, it's one thing if you criticize Angel Reese and you said, hey, I didn't like that. I thought that was bad sportsmanship. Okay, to each their own. But the name she was being called, it was so much more severe. You know, as I mentioned, the two examples in the story, you had former MSNBC host Keith Olbermann, who was once a colleague of mine at ESPN. You know, he called her a bleeping idiot. Right? You had Dave Portnoy, who is the founder of Barstool Sports, which has his own issues. I mean, he called her a classless piece of… excrement. Okay. This is still a 20 year old college student. Okay. A woman, 20 year old college woman. Right? That they're calling these names and saying these things about. And even if you just did a quick search on Twitter, some of the names she was being called, it was like that level of the abuse, that's when you understand what the racial dynamic is like. Just because you don't, you know, is one of those show me you want to use the N-word without showing me you want to use the N-word. And some people were flat out saying it, like, don't get me wrong, there was a contingent of people who were not shy about calling her that. And she even spoke to this herself in the post-game press conference because she's heard these critiques all year. Angel Reese, she wears long lashes, she has long hair. She is a very like, strong demonstrative personality, which I think is good for sports and good for the confidence of women. But people, you know, have called her too ghetto and too hood and all this other stuff. So she's had to hear these things about herself. So you better believe in a moment of glory. She was going to remind you exactly who Angel Reese was. But this is that tricky intersection of both race and gender, a dynamic that her white counterparts in her sport don't necessarily have to deal with is the racial component, which, you know, sends us to an additional layer within this conversation.
Natasha Alford [00:08:50] For sure. And I have to point out that you did respond to David Portnoy calling Angel Reese classless, using the same language that he used with her. There's a little, little medicine. Tell us why. What moved you?
Jemelle Hill [00:09:04] Well, what moved me to do it is like there's an extra layer of protection that Black women and girls need because we don't often get it. And when we do get it, typically it comes from each other. Right? And that's not to say that men or Black men in particular never protect us. So I'm not I'm not accusing them of that. But I'm just saying more often than not, we are our own defense. And I just thought it was important. As a Black woman who's often been subjected to similar abuse, and especially from one of these people, Dave Portnoy, that it was important that a line be drawn in the sand. And I wasn't the only one that drew it. Shaq did it. A lot of people came to Angel Reece's defense because we see what's happening. A lot of Black athletes came to her defense because many of them have had to deal with the same accusations of being called classless, being called bad for the game. And they're doing the same things that their white counterparts are doing. And when, again, when they do, it is considered to be revolutionary and welcoming and cool. But when a Black athlete does it, it's different.
Natasha Alford [00:10:00] Well, speaking of insults, Angel Reese heard about Dr. Jill Biden suggesting that maybe I should come to the White House with LSU and all be a happy family and celebrate as well-intentioned as that was. Angel Reese called that a joke. She was not too happy about the suggestion that the championship winning team should be there with the losing team at the White House. And it's something that you spoke up about as well. And I wonder, you know, this moment, how does it reinforce the long standing double standards that are pushing Black women athletes out of their rightfully earned spot? Like, how does this continue to happen? Where? People just don't see that it's undermining the glory that Black women and Black athletes in general deserve in these moments?
Jemelle Hill [00:10:48] It's very tricky for a lot of Black people, but I think especially for Black women, because erasure is an issue that we have to deal with all the time. And so I think that's something the invisibility, the lack of credit is something that Black women it's just a constant, long standing historical fight. And we've seen in our workplaces, in our communities and various environments, a lot of times where even if we're in the midst of a great accomplishment or we've done a good job, we've seen certainly that conversation shift to center whiteness. And I'm sure at the time, watch. It's such a great game in this game. By the way, is the most watched women's college basketball game in history. In history. Okay. What an accomplishment right there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 10 million viewers. I mean, to give further context, the men's national championship game drew 12. So they were within striking distance of having a game that rated just as high as the men's. So this is a banner moment for women's college basketball. And I know it was a great game, great competitors, two great outstanding players, and Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark. And I'm sure after seeing that even though Iowa got wiped, she was thinking, oh, it would be great to have both of these teams at the White House. But in that moment, which should have been purely about LSU's accomplishment, then winning the first ever national championship for women's basketball at their school, the whiteness get centered, the whiteness being Caitlin Clarke in Iowa. Right. And that is something that Black women have had to deal with forever. And for the people who were telling me like, oh, why would you make it a racial issue? Well, let me ask you this. Do you think if LSU would have lost that she would have invited them to the White House? She would not have. I think she kind of spoke out of turn and probably reactively, as opposed to thinking about how that invitation might be received.
Natasha Alford [00:12:43] Caitlin Clarke You know, it's interesting. She was praised for her performance, but she also put out a statement defending Angel Reese. And I wonder, Jemelle, do you think it's enough? And what can people who want to be allies in moments like this do?
Jemelle Hill [00:12:59] I thought it was significant that Caitlin Clarke put out that statement and that she did a few interviews in which she publicly voiced how much respect she has for Angel Reese as a player and how she never felt like she should have faced that level of criticism or any criticism at all for doing that. You can't see me gesture. She also said she never even saw it. So, like you have, these people were up in arms. She was like, I promise you, I did not see her do it.
Natasha Alford She's like, I'm minding my business, right?
Jemelle Hill Like, I focus on the fact I just lost a national championship. Like, I didn't really had time to really take care of my surroundings at that point. But she not only came to defense of her, she also said she would not want to go to the White House if there was an invitation extended. And I think that was kind of how the entire team she was speaking for. The team in that moment is like, I don't think they ever would have wanted to steal LSU's moment, even if there was a formal invitation that had gone out to them. And so often what I tell people who desire to be allies is that you actually have to take a deeper than just being an ally. You know, it's more like you need to be an accomplice. It's like you need to put something on the line, too. I thought it was great that she did stick herself out there a little bit because she didn't really have to do it. And so when those people were thinking about, like, how can I be a better ally, the best way to me you can be one is when you challenge something, support something, support somebody, support an issue when it's not beneficial, when it's not comfortable for you to actually do it. Something that may cost you some social standing, something that may cost you a friendship or two, something that may cost you perception is that you got to wage something. You got to put something on the lie to me to be a real ally.
Natasha Alford [00:14:43] For sure. I'm thinking also of just the world that we live in now. It's a world dominated by social media which is mixed in with mainstream media. You got voices like David Portnoy, who have these huge fan bases that are now a part of public conversation. And Jemelle, I wonder how do we rectify the disparity of power between some of these bloggers that have huge audiences and they can say whatever about Black athletes, and then you have our emerging talent like Angel Reese. How do we rectify that power disparity and also protect these athletes?
Jemelle Hill [00:15:21] That is the good part about social media, is that a force is a level of accountability really fast, right? Because I can tell you this in my own short history with Dave Portnoy, very rarely is he silent and he has a very specific type of person that follows that brand. And him. This is why so many people have been hesitant to speak out against some of the other things because he's said racist things. He's got a very long history. Just Google him. Okay. Part of the reason people are reluctant, especially women are reluctant to engage with him is because of the level of nastiness that comes with it. The people that follow him, how they verbally abused people online, is very specific and is very different than other forms of verbal abuse that you might see. I think when people like him in those positions of power, when their power goes unchecked, it's dangerous for everybody. And this is like the biggest role to me that social media can help in curbing that is that you got to continue to hold people accountable, continue to pull the receipts, because the receipts are something that cannot be debated against. And because I do see so many of these hypocrisies and injustices happening all the time, we need to be able to confront those. I don't know if we will fully make up for the disparity, but I think that's why it's very important that when we get to that position of power, that we use it very strategically and very wisely, but also very purposely because of the disparity that exists.
Natasha Alford [00:16:59] We know that this is bigger than one sport or one person, and we see someone like Angel who's confident and she's just like pushing through all the negativity. But I do wonder, do you think bias against Black women, misogyny, noire? Could that impact a player's performance?
Jemelle Hill [00:17:16] Just based off what I observed of this team, it's like they have a pretty strong unit and I think they're she's going to find a big support system. That being said, I hope there's being space made for her. If she doesn't feel strong. I hope that there's some kind of safe space, vulnerable space, that if these things have psychologically impacted her, that she has the voice to say that and the room to say that and to deal with that. You know, the colonizer on Black women is meant to be a compliment, but it can also be very debilitating in that we feel like we always have to have that battle armor on and we can't take it off. And one thing that I will say about this generation of Black athletes is that they're so much more aware of their boundaries than my generation ever was, like. You know, I look at a player like an athlete, like Naomi Osaka. I look at Simone Biles. You know, Simone Biles is like, I've done enough. She pulled out of the Olympics because she's like, Listen, I won. They got three moves named after me. That is true. It's like they got three moves named after her.
Natasha Alford [00:18:21] It doesn't get better than that.
Jemelle Hill [00:18:22] That has never been done in history. She's like, I got nothing left to prove. I don't have to give all of myself to you all. So she very clearly set a boundary and she stuck with it. Naomi Osaka is the same thing she's told us. I'm not okay. Not okay. And these media press conferences do nothing but give me anxiety. You know, she talked about the Mitchell effects she's facing. And rather than subject herself for that for her sport, sacrificed their own mental health. She decided I would take a timeout. And so this is a different way that athletes today are much clearer and have a much clearer sense of their mental health and their boundaries. That, I think is really healthy and really progressive, and that is very different from previous generations.
Natasha Alford [00:19:07] It's such a perfect example of the new role model, right? What it means to be a role model is not just this picture perfect on the cereal box type of image, but it's to have a story, to have challenges and to to meet those with confidence and with honesty.
Jemelle Hill [00:19:24] Yeah, I mean, I hope that this championship and the viewership and realize like I know a lot of people have tried to characterize it like it was a glitch in the Matrix when the ratings and the popularity of women's college basketball has been soaring the last decade, and the comparison to men's sports only leads to bad places because they want to compare, you know, let's say the WNBA and NBA. They want to compare a 25 year old product versus a product that's been lasting 70 plus years. I mean, the WNBA, it's a growing sport. I was there the first year it started as a reporter covering the league and looking at is now it's leaps and bounds. It's so much that league has to be proud of that. You have new independent owners that are in the WNBA and that was something a future they didn't see 25 years ago. They could never imagine that the national championship game would be on ABC and also ABC. All right. That speaks to the growth of the game.
Natasha Alford [00:20:21] There's a lot to be optimistic about. A final question as we close, Jemelle, the big question for me is how do we transform the idea of what the all-American athlete is so that Black women athletes can just do what they love and just play?
Jemelle Hill [00:20:39] I think coverage is part of it is that we have to start covering women's athletes as layered personalities and not based off tropes that kind of don't fit a lot of them anymore. Just covered in a very patriarchal way. I think a lot of times. And so we have to move away from that and allow room for these personalities like Andrews to be a household name. The way that she plays, the passion in which she plays. We should be covering that in a celebratory way because it's going to influence other women and give them the confidence and empower them to feel like they can always be themselves. Like I think sports fans used to want the poster on the wall, somebody that they considered to be a superhero. But I find that sort of the younger generation of sports fans are drawn to people who are okay with showing their flaws.
Natasha Alford [00:21:27] We need real heroes, imperfect heroes, human heroes. Jemelle Hill, thank you so much for joining the show today. It was great talking with you.
Jemelle Hill [00:21:35] Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Natasha Alford [00:21:37] That was Jemelle Hill, award winning sports journalist, host of the podcast Jemelle Hill is Unbothered and author of Uphill: A Memoir.
We turn next to hear from a college athlete herself who's hustling hard on and off the field. Howard University student Takunda Rusike is the founder of the second ever women's rugby team at a historically Black college or university. Under her leadership, her team became the first ever HBCU women's team to compete in a collegiate game under the College Rugby Association of America's Regional Rugby Championships. Takunda has a long standing love of the sport by way of her Zimbabwean roots, and she's working to make rugby accessible to Black athletes nationwide. Thanks so much for joining us, Takunda.
Takunda Rusike [00:22:25] Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be here.
Natasha Alford [00:22:28] Oh, we are happy to have you today. You founded Howard's first ever rugby team. What motivated you to do that?
Takunda Rusike [00:22:36] I had just been playing and really when I was trying to make my college decision, I had a lot of options. And with that I really started to realize that there really is such a huge gap with athletic programs and access, especially with rugby. I think when I was able to get that financial package from Howard that was possible to go there, the decision was obvious. So pretty much I decided to go to Howard and at first I was going to play club, as you know, in the D.C. area. I don't know if you know, but there is the Furies, there's Nova Women's Rugby, there's a lot of great women's rugby teams, D.C. Renegades. I mean, the list goes on. Then going to Howard and then just like meeting people. And then the way the semesters turned out, our freshman year was completely online. I think without having all that time to myself and still training because I was used to playing the sport in high school, I really was just like, you know, why is the rugby here? So as soon as I met some girls who were like they played and I was seeing that there was really like an interest. And then I met Miss Caryl Berthy. She's a Howard, alum who was really integral in getting us up off the ground, and we started as soon as I met her. They come of those pieces ready to come together. I was like, okay, there's really no reason not to do this, so we're just going to go for it.
Natasha Alford [00:23:48] Okay, So let's go back to the part where you were recruiting people for rugby. You said that some folks had played before actually, and some were like, interested. What was the pitch to other Howard students about why they should join the rugby team?
Takunda Rusike [00:24:04] So when we first started, I think we started with like our first practices were like 710 that we have like a team of like 40, 45. It's actually insane. So really I first started it was just getting those girls who had already played before because when you're first running a team like that, especially rugby, like I didn't want to have to create a team scratch. So that was really kind of like my first and just like talking to girls and then especially just being open that I was playing and doing this girls before coming up to me like, Hey, I used to play like would be interested. I'm also very just like outgoing. I love people. I'm a very big people person. So I think that really helped a lot too.
Natasha Alford [00:24:37] And are there a lot of Black women, rugby players? You know, my college roommates, all Black women, they played rugby, but it was something that I'd never heard of before. Tell me about that. What's the landscape?
Takunda Rusike [00:24:50] So now a lot of us do. But yeah, I definitely will say like there was a huge disparity from when I would go to track practice and then when I would go to rugby practice and I would feel that. And that was a huge part of the reason why I was kind of hesitated to jump full into rugby because I don't like play spaces that are not that inclusive. And I was a huge driver to the fact of why I wanted to try and do this and I was like, Even if it fails, whatever, because you know, you had a couple practices were just like a team of how were girls? Like, that's okay. Like even if it fails, I was really my mindset. Hmm.
Natasha Alford [00:25:23] I wonder what challenges did you face, if any, navigating the university system as a student leader trying to get this off the ground?
Takunda Rusike [00:25:33] Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to lie. Definitely. There's been some trials. It's so hard. I would just say, like having an exec board there. It's not just me. We have so many girls who I've gotten invested who love the sport as much as I do, who work alongside me to make things happen. So I would say just having that support system just because I there are days where I cannot do it, it is very exhausting. It can be very mentally challenging because it's just, you know, you're trying to progress in your sport, but you're also trying to like essentially like bring up an organization and a business in a sense.
Natasha Alford [00:26:08] I wonder, what do you think about the rugby team going varsity? Is that like a goal of yours?
Takunda Rusike [00:26:15] That's the main goal. So pretty much right now. Like, that's why it's so big that we're winning regionals and that's why we really want to make sure we're able to come out on top and prove ourselves. And when we get back from regionals, we’lll be answering those conversations with administration. We just know what the next steps look like. I would definitely hope within the next five years we're at varsity level for sure.
Natasha Alford [00:26:35] I'm interested in your thoughts about what you'd like to see change in women's sports now that you've done it. You know, you build something from scratch. You understand Title IX and all the intricacies. What do you think needs to change to continue to improve things?
Takunda Rusike [00:26:52] Transparency. I think there needs to be transparency across all like athletic boards and just programs. We need to be able to see what money is coming in or money's coming out. We should have transparency, like how much is the men's coach getting paid versus the women's coach? Just transparency. I mean, the huge example of this a couple of years ago with the men's NCAA basketball tournament and the women had posted like their warm up set up and I kind of there were more cohorts and I think it was like in a business center in like a hotel that they have like put on like wood planks. And like the men had had some like super elaborate warm up like center. And that was a difference that nobody knew about until, I think like a couple of years ago, just because of the internet and people had posted. Social media is really giving us a voice and a platform to where we can talk about these things and really just transparently see that there are huge differences within the roots of these systems. When there's something wrong, there's something wrong, and we're getting better. I feel like things are getting better for women in athletics, but there's still something wrong here.
Natasha Alford [00:27:56] There's still more work to do, that is for sure. It makes me wonder if you were talking to some aspiring Black women athletes. Let's say these are girls in high school. You know, they're hoping to come to Howard University, maybe join your rugby team. What advice would you give them for navigating the challenges and the joys that come with being a college athlete?
Takunda Rusike [00:28:19] Obviously college is you know, it's not just sports, it's also the school. It's also too social, especially going to Howard. It's very easy to take on too much and have anxiety. And just like it can become overwhelming to guys really quickly. So I would just make sure you have at least one day of the week to like, mope out and to kidnap and, you know, just things like that. Because again, even though these women are grinding and grinding and grinding to a goal, they're still people. So I think that was really my biggest thing and my biggest takeaway because it's something I wish somebody would have told me.
Natasha Alford [00:28:53] Great advice right there. Enjoy these these good years of your life. People say they are some of the best years of your life. You have a lot to look forward to, though. And speaking of that final question, what are your plans for after graduation? Anything in mind just yet?
Takunda Rusike [00:29:09] So funny that you mention this. I actually just received my acceptance for my internship with a consulting firm, so I'm looking to build a career in healthcare consulting. That's really what I'm passionate about. Just like healthcare administration. It’s really important that we have Black women in these spaces because a lot of these policies are not made with us in mind at all. I've loved being at Howard. I'm going to be so sad to graduate from Howard, but I am really excited to see kind of opportunities await. I am talking to coaches seeing, so I'm really excited to, you know, pursue my master's degree and finish my last couple of years of rugby eligibility. I love the sport, so I'm going to go out with a bang and play one last time. College. I think this experience has really taught me that I can run a business, I can, you know, be ahead of the company that I want to do that I'm excited to see where, you know, life takes me. I'll continue to play, continue to tackle.
Natasha Alford [00:30:05] Well, wherever you go, we are sure you will take that championship energy and mindset with you. Thanks so much for being on the show today.
Takunda Rusike [00:30:14] Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Natasha Alford [00:30:16] That was college student Takunda Rusike, founder of the Women's Herd rugby team at Howard University.
BREAK
Natasha Alford Each week on the show, we bring you a roundtable called Sippin’ the Political Tea. Joining me is Khristina Williams, the founder of Girls Talk Sports TV. Hi, Khristina.
Khristina Williams [00:30:47] Hi Natasha, how are you?
Natasha Alford [00:30:48] I'm doing great. Great to have you on the show today. And we also have with us Kavitha A. Davidson, sports writer and correspondent on HBO’s Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel. Welcome, Kavitha.
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:31:00] Hi, Natasha. Thanks for having me.
Natasha Alford [00:31:02] It's a pleasure. So we are going to dig deep on the role of gender in the wider world of sports and sports journalism. Khristina, let's start with you. You cover women's basketball in-depth on your platform. Girls Talk Sports TV. And this was an exciting year for women's college basketball, especially with Louisiana State University's championship win. It was just an incredible moment for women's sports. But we also saw there was some media criticism of star player Angel Reese. What did you think of the coverage of the team?
Khristina Williams [00:31:36] Yeah, So the win was huge for the LSU program, obviously, because it was the first win in the program's history. And then you dive deeper into Kim Mulkey. She was able to do it at different programs. And so it's a historical win on both sides. And so the criticism of injuries, I think that there's a double standard when it comes to how women athletes are covered. But also when you dig deeper into how Black women athletes are covered, and we saw that at play during the Final Four. Dawn Staley, she was someone who came out and spoke about how her players at South Carolina was covered during the Final Four and throughout the history of the program since she had taken over. But yeah, we saw what was at play with Angel Reese being criticized and how Black women athletes are held to a different standard or under a different microscope compared to their white counterparts. And also in terms of how Black women athletes are covered compared to their white counterparts as well.
Natasha Alford [00:32:34] Well, it makes me think of this idea of proper sportsmanship. Right. There were so many critics who said, look, this has nothing to do with race, has nothing to do with gender. We're just talking about sportsmanship. Kavitha, what is proper sportsmanship and how do you think it's somehow applied differently to women in sports?
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:32:53] Sportsmanship in sports is a word that just means respectability politics, right? That's what we're really talking about here. And it's really fascinating to watch these conversations play out in the context of women's sports. Ten, 20, 30 years after we saw these very racially tinged conversations play out in men's sports. Right. It reminds me a lot of when Cam Newton was facing off with Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl, in Super Bowl 50. And the treatment of Cam having personality and being, you know, this kind of a little bit of oddball but serving himself athletically versus Peyton Manning being this kind of image of what you think of as the stoic quarterback kind of thing. We're seeing that play out now today, which on the one hand, it does actually signal a weird kind of progress that we're talking about women's sports in this way, but we shouldn't be grateful for that. Right. And we're seeing it play out in a way that obviously has the racial component, but with a gendered component, then you have a lot of conversation about “ladylike” behavior and what that means. It's very interesting to see the same conversations that we've been having now play out with the added element of being Black and being women.
Natasha Alford [00:34:00] Let's talk about the Biden administration on the way that they have proposed a rule to change Title IX to include transgender athletes. Kavitha, can you walk us through what is the proposal and what does it mean for transgender athletes?
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:34:15] So put very simply, the Biden administration has proposed legislation that is meant to prevent states from enacting all out wholesale bans against trans athletes. Now, that does sound like a good thing and it is a good step forward. The problem is it still leaves room for case by case basis of banning certain trans athletes dependent on sport, dependent on very subjective terms. And a lot of pro trans athlete advocates will point out that it doesn't go far enough. We have 20 states right now that have on the books legislation that does ban trans athletes, some of the more invasive and draconian cases. Kansas is a very good example of this, actually allows for genital inspection of these athletes. And these are children. These are children we are talking about. And there's also not any guarantee that it's actually going to get past. The thing about Title IX legislation in general is that it's very much at the whim of the executive branch and who's president at the time. We spend a lot of air time and a lot of Congress's time talking about this. Coming up with solutions for a problem that doesn't really exist.
Natasha Alford [00:35:23] I'm interested in hormone testing. We know that that is also part of this conversation on a national and international level. How does hormone level testing like. For testosterone and gender affirming hormone treatment fit into our conversation about fairness.
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:35:41] So on the one hand, hormone testing is an attempt to be as objective and as fair as possible when assessing whether there is a competitive advantage or not. My opinion on this is that there's just not enough science to back up where those levels should be placed. The idea that people who have not cared about gender equality in sports, frankly, have probably never read Title IX themselves, that they are using a cultural issue like this, a political talking point like this to suddenly signal for equality And women's sports is very cynical at best and at worst is very dangerous for a population that's already under threat.
Natasha Alford [00:36:20] I want to go back to what we talked about earlier, which is the media's treatment of women athletes. Khristina, I'm curious. What are some of the ways that media coverage of Black women athletes reflects a misunderstanding of Black women?
Khristina Williams [00:36:37] Yeah, I think the hyper criticism of how these athletes are covered in terms of their flaws, it definitely paints that narrative that we lack excellence. It's going back to diminishing our greatness, just being our authentic selves, or that we achieve greatness through other channels. When we look at how they're covered, we're thinking about like a white dominated space. And so the thought of Black women achieving success in that, they're going to get criticized.
Natasha Alford [00:37:07] It makes me wonder whether regulations and rules still favor white and male players. Right. I'm thinking of all these examples, you know, Sha'Carri Richardson being banned over testing positive for marijuana use of Soul Caps. These are the extra large swimming caps that are designed for Black women's hairstyles. That was also banned. Right. I mean, these are just things that, again, show that the default and the standard is one in which Black women are almost not expected to be there.
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:37:36] I wrote about Soul Caps a couple of years ago, and it shows you that the people in charge we're making these rules are still predominantly white men, that you don't have an understanding of why an expanded swim cap might be necessary for certain natural hair or the emotional and political connection to hair in general that so many of our women have. Whether you're talking about Sha'Carri Richardson or any swimmer who who needed needs or wants to use a Soul Cap. The idea that Black women are held to a standard that if you deviate an eighth of an inch from what the rules state technically or if any kind of exception has to be made, then you're vilified for it. Right. We saw with the Black male pioneers in sports like Jackie Robinson or like Henry Aaron, that there is a right type of Black woman athlete to be if you want to be accepted by the mainstream or by the media. And that perception really only changes as we have more coverage of women's sports and as we have more personalities. And by the way, so much of the criticism of women's sports is how much money they generate or the marketing around them. And frankly, something like this. Angel Reese and Caitlin Clarke thing has been very good for the marketing of women's sports.
Natasha Alford [00:38:55] Well, we've talked about everything from culture to biology to testing. We have not yet talked about mental health thinking again of Sha'Carri Richardson, you know, talking about having to smoke to cope with the death of her mother, Naomi Osaka, being fined for refusing to do interviews, being criticized for dropping out of the French Open because she prioritized her mental health. How does the media play a role in the overall wellness of athletes and also promoting a healthy or unhealthy idea of mental health?
Khristina Williams [00:39:30] This seems to be a trend, right, in terms of covering, you know, women athletes or women athletes of color in general, where the media will do everything they can to build up the athlete. And then you'll see that switch where it's like they're responsible also for bringing them all the way down. We saw it happen with Richardson. You know, it's just very interesting how we control those narratives. And it just goes back to having diversity in the newsroom and so that we are able to be fully equipped to tell these stories in the right way.
Natasha Alford [00:40:01] You're both women of color who are working in sports journalism. I just want to point out, 2022 survey data from the Pew Research Center showed 83% of sports journalists surveyed identified as male and 82% identified as white. So, Khristina, do these numbers surprise you? And what do you think they say about the need for change in sports media?
Khristina Williams [00:40:25] The numbers do not surprise me at all. In fact, that is part of the reason why I had to start my own platform to even get a start in the sport industry in. So what does it say? It says that nothing much has changed and that there's still a lot of work that needs to be done in this new space. But I'm not surprised by those numbers at all. I think that in the women's basketball space especially, it shows the diversity of the coverage, you know, in terms of who's covering the game. And there's a lot of women of color in this space as well. And when you look at the bigger picture, there's a lot of work that needs to be done.
Natasha Alford [00:41:00] There's so much work that needs to be done. And women's sports, we know, are catching up to men's sports in terms of these endorsement dollars, you know, getting boosts and TV ratings and media recognition. Kavitha, how do we get to the promised land of equality that Title IX is supposed to represent?
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:41:19] Well, from a media coverage standpoint, it's still very basic. When people read those numbers, 82% identify as white men. A lot of them still have the immediate assumption. While it's because women don't want to cover sports, women just aren't interested in sports. Women of color aren't interested in sports. Right. What are the numbers in there? Because I'm an Indian-American, was I think Asian representation among sportswriters is less than 1%. Now, I actually have less of a problem with that than I do of Black representation because of who we're covering. I mean, if we talk about proportionality with the United States demographics, that's one thing. But if we also talk about proportionality with the athletes that we're covering, you know, if 77% of the NFL is Black, close to maybe 70% or something of NFL writers should also probably be from similar backgrounds or backgrounds where they can properly cover these athletes. And we just don't see that. So I think we have to get over the attitude that only white men like sports, that only white men want to cover sports, or that only white men have the aptitude to cover sports, which is the other thing. When we do see inroads made by people of color and women of color in particular, it's usually because they have played these sports, which I think is great. Candace Parker should have every platform available to her, right? But we give so much more leeway to white men who have never played a sport in their life, who are very good at what they do, but that's not a requirement for them in the same way that it is for the rest of us. That goes hand in hand with who are making the decisions. It's even worse when you look at the top, look at the numbers for who the sports editors are, who the executive producers are, and the numbers are going to be even more stark. So the decision makers, unless you started your own company like Khristina did, they're still largely white men. And that very much does trickle down to who does the coverage and how the coverage is shaped.
Natasha Alford [00:43:09] Well, you know, there is another role in this picture that can play a part in advocating for equality, and that is the fans, the role of the fans, the spectators. Khristina, as we wrap up today, what do you think their role is in changing this narrative? What can all of us at home do to try to uplift equality in sports?
Khristina Williams [00:43:32] I love the women's sports thing so much because the fans are what we call fluid fans and they're loyal. They support by liking, sharing the content, engaging, but also they challenge the newsrooms. I love Twitter so much because you get to see it happen in real time, where fans are challenging media and media companies to do better when it comes to covering Black athletes or diversifying their coverage in the sport. And we see it happen in real time where those companies listen to the fans and they provide avenues for real coverage and a change in how they cover the game in real time. So just keep the conversation going, keep building community and just keep supporting by watching like fine words, just little things like that to support and grow it.
Natasha Alford [00:44:19] Well, Khristina, I have to shout you out because I read that when you were in middle school, there was a boys basketball team and you wanted a girls basketball team and you went around and you rallied. Yes. To get this team created. And that is just so emblematic of the Title IX spirit. Right? The fact that girls want to play, too, and they want the opportunity. What an image to think of how you went from rallying to get the girls basketball team started to now starting your own company.
Khristina Williams [00:44:48] Yeah, when I think about it, I mean, it's like the circle of life. I started in the fifth grade with saying, Hey, I don't want to be a cheerleader. I actually want to learn how to play basketball. And I think that we should have a basketball team. There's a different light now, years later, where it's trying to get that equal media coverage for, you know, women's sports and women athletes of color as well. And so I'm here for the long haul. I think that we're seeing a shift happen, especially like we mentioned, with athletes like Angel Reese, who are more outspoken about the coverage and what's happening. And so I'm excited for what the future of sport is going to look like.
Natasha Alford [00:45:25] Amazing. Kavitha, as we close, what's your call to action? How do you think we lift up women, transgender, non-binary athletes of all backgrounds?
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:45:36] I'll just echo what Khristina said. Be loud about what you like. Don't take to social media. You know, I think that it goes into the ether. But companies, teams, leagues read all of it. And, you know, it sometimes helps to drown out some of the loudest small and minority voices that speak against equality. I do not believe that it is a mainstream view to discriminate against athletes. I think that it's the loudest people with the hottest makes the state those opinions. Sports is still a small C conservative business. And you know, when something hasn't been broke and when revenues continue to rise, nobody takes any chances on things like women's sports. So if you demonstrate that there is a need, then people will listen to that. The other thing that I will add is for decades in the business of marketing and consuming men's sports, leagues and teams cared the most about avid fans. And there are no more avid fans than fans of women's sports. But now the evolution of the business has gone toward executives realizing that so much money has to be made from the casual fan and men's sports. So the avid fan and women's sports can bring in casual fans and grow fanbases. You don't have to be a season ticket holder, but, you know, seeing the value in it in women's sports and consuming it in the same way that you might casually on a Sunday or if you happen to, you know, have a fantasy player who's on a certain team. That's the way that we're actually going to grow the business of the sport itself. So, you know, the average the casual fan pipeline I think is really important.
Natasha Alford [00:47:07] All right. Avid and casual fans mount up. Now is your time. We are supporting women's sports. Khristina, Kavitha, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was great to have you.
Khristina Williams [00:47:18] Thank you for having us.
Kavitha A. Davidson [00:47:19] Thank you.
Natasha Alford [00:47:21] That was Kavitha A. Davidson, sportswriter and correspondant on HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel and Khristina Williams, founder of Girls Talk Sports TV.
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcasts. You can also find us on Instagram and Twitter @OurBodyPolitic. Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch.
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. I'm today's host Natasha Alford. Farai Chideya and Nina Spensley are executive producers. Emily J. Daly is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booking producer. Anoa Changa is our producer. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Monica Morales-Garcia is our fact checker.
This program is produced with support from the Luce Foundation, Open Society Foundation, Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.