This week on Our Body Politic, Farai interviews Nelba Márquez-Greene, parent of one of the victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary tragedy that occurred ten years ago, and founder of The Ana Grace Project and This Grieving Life. Then, she talks money strategies with personal finance guru Michelle Singletary, who shares tips on what we can do as inflation hits record highs. And finally, in our weekly segment ‘Sippin’ the Political Tea’, Farai speaks with Major General Linda Singh and Moscow Bureau Chief of the Wall Street Journal, Ann Simmons on how Russia’s recent invasion of Ukraine has drastically heightened tensions in Europe.
Farai Chideya:
Hi, folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us, and we read them for your feedback. We are here for you, with you, and because of you. Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Life is profoundly shaped by what we do with our pain, with grief, with tragedy. Do we let it take us under, or do we find a path through what once seemed unthinkable? That's something that Nelba Marquez Greene knows intimately. First, she chose to become a licensed marriage and family therapist, and then 10 years ago, her six-year-old daughter, Ana, was shot killed at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. In total, the gunman killed 20 first graders and six educators. Just days ago, nine families of Sandy Hook victims were awarded $73 million in a judgment against Remington Arms. Lawyers successfully argued that the gun maker violated a state law by marketing to people who were a risk to public safety, or too young to buy guns. Nelba and her family did not participate in the suit, nor did the majority of families of victims.
Farai Chideya:
She and her family founded the Ana Grace Project, an organization focused on building community and connection in order to prevent violence and promote healing. And at the end of next month, there will also be an elementary school in Ana's name. I sat down with Nelba, founder and executive director of the Ana Grace Project, to ask what each of us can do about gun violence and how she continues to keep Ana's legacy alive. This is one of those things where I don't know where to start with you in some ways, because you already were so deeply involved in trying to make the world better for families and children before the tragedy of your daughter's killing. And now, it just seems to me like your voice is so strong. And you were on an MSNBC interview talking about making the case to people for staying engaged, so tell me about the Ana Grace Project.
Nelba Marquez Greene:
Sure. So we wanted in the aftermath of this... You said killing, after which I am grateful you use that language, because that's exactly what it is. And we try to soften it often, to kind of pull away from the tragedy, and we shouldn't. And in the aftermath of Ana's killing, we wanted to make sure that other children who are loved just as much as her, as her brother, Isaiah, would have resources also as they experienced tragedy or came from situations where they needed to heal. So we provided mental health support, conferences, funding for many different schools. We were embedded and are embedded in many different schools, providing direct mental health services, and have done many, many things in her memory trying to build legacy.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. And now that there has been a settlement, which you are not a party to... And I do want to ask you about that a little bit, but first, is this progress? How does it sit in your heart to see how many shootings there have been in the decade since Ana Grace was killed? And at the same time, that there has been some desire to reckon with this in a civil court?
Nelba Marquez Greene:
Progress often isn't linear, and it isn't clean and neat and tied with a bow, so I am incredibly grateful for this verdict for the nine families involved in the suit. Hopefully, it will spare some other family from the same pain, or allow them to find justice in a way that feels meaningful for them should they go forward with a suit like this. So that's what this did, is kick the door down. So I'm grateful for those nine. I'm also aware at the same time... I think I read an article that said we had more mass shootings this year than any other year, or more shootings at school, or more deaths of people. So it is both.
Farai Chideya:
And is your family pursuing a civil legal action on your own, since you weren't part of the class action?
Nelba Marquez Greene:
At the time, we were offered the opportunity to step in to the many lawsuits that were going on. We made the choice to go in a different direction. I don't think people understand how much care and support survivors need after tragedy. And I certainly hope that people don't see these nine families and go, "Oh, okay. Well, they're all set now." We're never going to be all set. Whether you got $5 million in a settlement or not, this is not something that gets all set. So no, we did not pursue. We won't be pursuing. No, we will not.
Farai Chideya:
And speaking of care, you have a son, you have a husband, Jimmy, and your whole family has been part of this journey. How do you support each other as a family?
Nelba Marquez Greene:
I'm so grateful that you're asking me that, because that changes over time. It changes as we kind of march along, and it is now almost 10 years later, and it changes in every season of development. It's changing now, as Isaiah is ready to be a full adult. We try to manage every day with the strength and resources that we have available, with our faith, and also with the search for beauty. My husband is an educator. He loves teaching. He has a passion for students, and that has not changed. He's also a performer. He's a creative. He plays all over the world, and that is his outlet for remembering his baby girl. And it is in line with what we do. We are cutting the ribbon on a brand new 800 students-strong facility with 165 educators on March 30th, the Ana Grace Academy of the Arts.
Farai Chideya:
Oh, that is amazing.
Nelba Marquez Greene:
Yes. And we are just so deeply proud that the arts can be a part of our healing, and supporting the arts being parts of other people healing.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. This is a little bit of a digression, but I was really excited to learn that the poet La Bruja had become the new head of the Nuyorican Poets Cafe. And of course, she's Puerto Rican. You're Puerto Rican. I just wonder how being Puerto Rican has influenced how you've dealt with this.
Nelba Marquez Greene:
I am in tears right now that you asked me that question, because it has been almost 10 years, and no one has ever asked. So thank you. It is incredibly meaningful to be asked that, because we're not like every other family. And no other family is alike, but specifically to being Puerto Rican, I have to say that's why so much of this was so deeply offensive: not just losing her, but all we had to go through after. The accusations of profiting off a child, the accusations by so many people of this not even being real, of being a part of a conspiracy to take guns from people.
Nelba Marquez Greene:
If you know anything about Puerto Rican culture, we are a family-oriented, strictly community-based culture and society. And the idea that we would be a part of something, of profit off our daughter or a part of a conspiracy was just so deeply offensive to me. It made me cry on many days, and still does, having to explain this to my mom, who had taught for 32 years, who lives on the island now full time, to my family who live there. It often left me without words.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, yeah. And can I ask... How do you talk to your son? A young Brown man in America having lost his sister, having watched his parents have to kind of triage civil society to try to get things changed. What do you tell him?
Nelba Marquez Greene:
Isaiah has always been the soft, gentle spirit, and he's just so wise. He's so wise. He knew some things. We prayed that night when we came home that we were aware we had lost one child, that we would not lose this other one, or stray from the path of knowing how to raise him. Because they write a lot of books about childrearing, but they don't write a lot of books about growing up a surviving child when a six-year-old is lost, is murdered by a mass shooter. So we just tried every day to live honestly. And one decision we made that I'm very proud of is we always said, "If you are looking for truth, you will find it at home. We are never going to keep something from you. We are never going to not explain something for you. We want you to learn it at home. So all these things people are saying, you have a question? Come home. We'll be here." And I think that really helped develop some trust.
Farai Chideya:
Ah, that's amazing. I mean, that rite of passage for Black and Brown boys in America is already so fraught. I can only imagine with everything you've had to deal with still... You are a licensed family therapist. You are a healer. Why did you take that path before any of this even happened?
Nelba Marquez Greene:
That's a great question too. So I was a teacher, and I was finding in my classrooms that the students who did better were students who had family involvement. And that made me super curious about family therapy. I also have a pretty extensive personal history of trauma. I have a adverse childhood experience score of nine. My first kind of go around with gun violence wasn't December 14th. I was five years old. So I think it's my own narrative. Let this be a message to anyone listening that it's not your job to heal other people when you have an extensive trauma history, but your story shared can create different pathways for people as they consider their own journeys.
Farai Chideya:
I just want to say that it is tremendous to hear about the academy opening in your daughter's name, and all of the work that you have done with Ana Grace, but also the work that you have done with yourself. You clearly are someone who is a fully realized person in your words, deeds, and actions. And I'm just so grateful, Nelba, that you made time for us.
Nelba Marquez Greene:
Thank you for that. And I want other survivors to know that this is possible for them, and that they deserve this. There are many roads for survivors, but I hope all of those roads include self-care, self-love, and self-compassion.
Farai Chideya:
Truer words. Thank you again.
Nelba Marquez Greene:
Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
That's Nelba Marquez Greene, mother of Ana Grace Marquez-Greene. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist and executive director of the Ana Grace Project. Coming up next, record high inflation is jacking up the prices of groceries and home goods across the United States. Washington Post columnist Michelle Singletary answers your questions on how to get by. Plus, on Sippin' the Political Tea, Russia's invasion of Ukraine. That's on Our Body Politic. Welcome back to Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. The latest Consumer Price Index report showed that prices in January rose by 7.5%. That's a 40-year high, and people are feeling squeezed. So we asked you to give us some perspective. We made a call out on last week's show and on social media to find out where inflation is hitting your wallet and your life, and here's what some of you had to say.
Speaker 3:
When the money starts to dwindle, you still have to pay for Ubers to daycare. You got to pay for daycare. You got to pay for food.
Speaker 4:
The price point would be the gas, because I do a lot of driving, mostly volunteering, helping people.
Speaker 5:
The things that are hitting me the hardest are medical bills, tests that I need to have done as a person who lives with chronic illness.
Farai Chideya:
And thanks again for calling in. So while prices rise, so does our need for smart financial practices. Washington Post columnist and personal finance expert Michelle Singletary joined us to answer some of your questions. So boy, is at a time of a lot of stress for a lot of people. Spike in prices, I was talking about it with a ride share car driver the other day who was... He's a Haitian immigrant, and he was talking about how hard it is to buy fresh fruits and vegetables. So what is behind this latest surge? I know that different people have different thoughts about it.
Michelle Singletary:
Right. So inflation essentially is the cost of goods. So different pressures on supply chains and labor shortages and consumer man pushes up the cost of goods. So what you might have paid for milk last month is much more this month, and so it erodes your ability to buy the things that you could buy last month. And so where you might have done steak and chicken, now you can only do chicken, because that's all you can afford. Now, obviously the pandemic hit the economy hard. Millions of people lost their jobs. And as a result, things slowed down, things stopped. And initially, the thought was this would be temporary. As people got back to work, the supply chains would be better, but this is not happening. People are still out sick. Wages are up, but if wages are up and prices are up, it kind of washes everything out. If your wages are up, but you've also got to pay more for housing and food, you don't really gain anything. You can't save the extra money you're making, because your wages are taken up.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. And as people have said in various contexts, the rent is too high. We've been hearing a lot about rising rents, and we got a lot of questions about housing. Let's listen to one of the messages that we got.
Speaker 5:
Taxes are raising, and that has been hard, especially the route that I took to be able to purchase a place so that I didn't have landlords who held control, took the route of home ownership. And everything continuously increases, and costs, and bills, and [inaudible 00:15:54] in this new home, while others are being pushed out of their homes every day.
Farai Chideya:
Thank you for leaving us that message. And Michelle, people who rent are worried about the rent being too high. This is a homeowner who's talking about the taxes being too high. What's your basic advice on how to play your cards and where you live?
Michelle Singletary:
Oh, this is such a hard question, because housing is so essential to people. We have to rethink our housing situation. And where it's possible, shared housing, for now, is the answer. Now, we know lots of people sort of held up with relatives and parents during the pandemic. And so now, one of the reasons why rents are increased is that people say, "Well, I'm tired of living with other people. I want to now move out into my own place." You might not be able to do that right now. You may need to continue to stay with your parents or relatives, or have those two or three roommates until prices stabilized so that you can afford to move.
Farai Chideya:
So you are essentially preaching the gospel of "Do not overspend on your Barbie Dreamhouse when you don't have it to spend." And I was thinking of my younger years, and I really saved a lot of money at different times by couch surfing, by staying people who were willing to put me up for free. And I had to make good judgements about whether I was imposing. What did it mean to be a good guest? But I remember specifically at one point when I was in my early 20s and working at Newsweek yon years ago that someone who I didn't know well knew that I was struggling to find housing, and just offered to put me up in her family's house, because she was from New York, in a spare bedroom.
Farai Chideya:
And we are lifelong friends, just because she's an amazing person. But I honestly thought twice about accepting her offer, even though I really desperately needed it. I was like, "I don't know you. What's the deal?" It can be a level of hard decisions, even if you're lucky enough to have people who can help. How do you deal with the sort of freemium economy of housing?
Michelle Singletary:
Right, right. So first thing is don't think of yourself as a freeloader or a imposition. And I look at it... To the person who needs that place to stay, it's perfectly okay to say, "I need help. Can I stay with you? I may be able to pay some rent. I may not be." And on the other side of that, if you have room in your home, if you have room in your two or three-bedroom apartment, you've been using one room as an office and another as your TV room, take someone in. Give them a breath of financial air. My husband and I have had two homes, and we have always had someone living with us that didn't include just our kids. My sister, when she went through a bad divorce, a relative who got into some debt trouble. And we came, and she lived with me for 18 months without paying any rent, so that she can get herself back together.
Michelle Singletary:
And so if you've got that space, if you've got that heart, let them in, as long as the person is moving forward. I did a story of about having our daughter come live with us, and there was all these snarky comments on, "Oh, you're a controlling parent. Oh, she needs to be living on her own, and all this independence." I was so... You can hear it in my voice, because I was so mad. She's a grown adult. She made the decision with us, but it was a very smart decision. And that's the problem we have. We want to say, "If you are 18 or over, you kick out there." And you can be independent and live with someone. You can be a productive adult and have a roommate and be a roommate.
Farai Chideya:
And can I just say... I mean, speaking the obvious, that your race often determines your family's wealth. And so a lot of times... I talked to one of my former students, because I taught journalism, and she was like, "Yeah, my peers at work," once she started working, their parents pay their rent. She's like, "My parents don't pay my rent."
Michelle Singletary:
Exactly. But you do what you have to do, and you set this standards. And don't think of yourself as a freeloader. And then also on the other side of that, welcome people to give them some financial breathing room, and eventually they will be out on their own and can move forward. And I think in this day and age with rising inflation, rising rents, rising food costs, we all have to play a part in helping each other weather this financial storm
Farai Chideya:
Keeping with the real estate theme, we got a couple more... We got many more questions, but a couple more, one from a listener, Amethyst. Amethyst was like, "What are the saving techniques to use when preparing to think about owning land and property?" And she says she would love to have a little farm someday. How do tactically do you save? And then what's your strategy in a rising market for cost of housing?
Michelle Singletary:
The most effective strategy to save is to make it automatic. So whatever you can save, if it's $25 or couple hundred dollars a month, make it automatic. So many employers, almost all that I know of at least, will allow you to split your paycheck into different accounts. And I've done this for years, for decades, really. So I have a main household account that's where the bulk of my check goes, my paycheck to pay for food, housing, and then I send money off to a savings account that is automatic every month. Goes in there to emergency fund, and that just sits there for when things crazy happens: car breaks down, say I lose my job. And then I send that money off to other pots, like to save for a car, or when we were, my husband and I, buying our first home, for that down payment for the home and closing costs.
Michelle Singletary:
So send that money all off to an account that you don't have an ATM and you don't look at, and that effectively helps you automate it. It's sort of set it and forget it. It's like that roasted chicken. You put it in a pot, and you just set it and you let it go and do its thing. That's the most effective. Now, it's challenging if you are living on the edge and you don't have a lot of money, but the key thing is to just save whatever you can, when you can, as much, and push yourself. And I know that's hard, particularly if people are struggling. But if you've got room, that means cutting out eating out. It may mean not taking vacation for a couple of years.
Michelle Singletary:
And it doesn't mean that you can't take time off. It just means maybe you can't go to an island. Find some places in your city where you live that you can enjoy the time off that you have from work. Now, as far as housing prices, lots of people are like, "I'm never going to buy a house." And that actually is driving up housing prices, because people feel, "I've got to jump on it right now," as if there's never going to be another house available. If you're not ready for home ownership because it's too costly, you don't have enough, just be patient.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. We're asking Michelle Singletary, personal finance columnist with the Washington Post, to answer your questions on surging prices and how to stay financially fit. So we've talked quite a lot about housing, and now let's talk about food. We got a message from Mike in Greensboro, North Carolina.
Speaker 7:
My wife and I have a recently-turned one-year-old child, and in the last year, inflation has risen. And we've felt the squeeze of that, mostly at the grocery store for buying food for us and formula for the baby, and a little at the pump. It's pretty much the same as everyone else. But my concern isn't so much the fact that we're paying more, but it's why we're paying more. It seems to me that not all products, whether they're at the grocery store or restaurant or at the pump, they aren't all subject to bottlenecks in the supply chain, and these companies are charging us more simply because they can, and without much pushback from a Congress they've bought off long ago. I mean, to me, this crisis of inflation seems to be as much, if not more, of a product of corporate greed.
Farai Chideya:
So Michelle, there are, I'm sure, a lot of different reasons for rising prices. Our listener, Mike, is concerned that he's a victim of price gouging. Whether or not that's the case... And first of all, can we know? And secondly, whether or not that's the case, you have choices to make. And how do you deal with the food bills?
Michelle Singletary:
Right. So I think for the large part, in this case, it may not necessarily be price gouging, but look, this is what's happening. So it costs the companies more to have workers. So wages have gone up, so that's one reason why things cost more. I mean, if you've gone to a local grocery store... I've noticed it's in my area, where there's like 10 checkout cashier stands. You might have half of those filled with people. So workers have decided, "You know what? I don't have to work these long hours standing up on my feet. I could do something else and get paid more." So it's harder for them to find workers. Wages have gone up. That contributes to the rising costs in your food. Then there's supply chain issues. Workers at plants and all over the country are sick, and they're not up to full capacity, so there's less out there to buy.
Michelle Singletary:
And if you know anything about economics, this is what happens. If there's a high demand and lower supply, prices go up. So it's just how it works. And so that's going on. And then if they can't get goods in one area, how do they make up the profit that they would've experienced if they can't get certain things in there? So they tend to raise prices on other items that people want and need and they do have. So it's a combination of all of that. I don't know if we can say it's all about corporate greed. It's just where we are right now in the economy. There's lots of consumer demand for things. We were all pent-up for two years, really now going on three years. So we want to fix our porches. We want to have flowers for our garden. It costs lights to turn on a grocery store. It costs lights to have... I mean, it costs money to have people come clean and stock the shelves. So you see, it's sort of a vicious cycle, so we all sort of have to put up with that until things stabilize.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. Let's wrap up here with employment. So we had one listener reach out to us talking about wanting to start his own business, but being a little worried because of the volatility of the economy. And then a second listener, Matt, said that with inflation on the rise, his pay is depreciating. And he asked, "When is the right time to talk to my employer about raising my salary to match inflation? And how do I have that conversation?" So that's a tough one.
Michelle Singletary:
Yeah, it's a tough one. So for entrepreneurs, I'd say this. I'd say we are a country of entrepreneurs. There's lots of people who want to go out on their own, and that's a great thing. Make sure that launch is not going to push you back financially. So make sure you have a good business plan, make sure you've got some savings to cover those months while you get your business going, and maybe the revenue isn't coming in to give you the profit that you need to run your household. So maybe keep your day job, do your side hustle on the side, until you are ready to go out there on your own. And again, you've got to factor in the fact that you need healthcare. So if you've got healthcare with your job, but you're going to start out to your business, you got to factor that in and make sure that you're pricing whatever you're going to be doing on your business to make it work.
Michelle Singletary:
Just be very careful. I know there's a lot of people who are anxious and want to do things on their own, and that's a great thing, but run the numbers. Make sure that you can do this and launch that business, and not put yourself back financially. So it could mean that you might have to hold off a couple of years before you launch that business until things stabilize in the economy, and you've got a good cash cushion to carry you while you build up that business.
Farai Chideya:
And what about reaching out to your boss and saying, "Hey, boss, I'd like to be paid more"?
Michelle Singletary:
Yeah. So the thing about pay increases and asking for a raise, you want to focus on your job. So the thing is, don't go and say, "Hey, I got to pay more for tomatoes. Give me more money." I don't think that's going to go over well. I think what you say is, "I've been doing exceptional work, and I believe that I deserve a raise, and here's why," and then list all the things you've been doing for the year. Focus on the job and your skill levels and what you've done, as opposed to what it's costing you to live. I'm not sure that's going to be the most effective way to get a raise. Everybody knows inflation's up, but your job, your supervisor is going to look at your performance and whether your performance merits are raised. So what I'm saying is I'm not discouraging you from asking for that raise, but make a case for that raise based on your performance.
Michelle Singletary:
And particularly if during the pandemic, you rose to the occasion and then some. I mean, I know personally, me, I've been working nonstop writing about stimulus payments, so I think I have a good case to ask for a raise. And if you've been doing that, you worked at home with childcare issues and all kinds of things like that, you say, "Look at my performance during the most trying time of this company. Look at the sales that I brought in. Look at the..." If I had to turn in forms and process cases or whatever it is that you do, if you did it well and exceptional, use that as a case for your raise. I think that's going to be a more effective argument to get that money that you deserve.
Farai Chideya:
Well, speaking of exceptional, you are exceptional at giving us great advice on how to navigate these financial waters. And they can be choppy, so I really appreciate it, Michelle. Thanks for joining us again.
Michelle Singletary:
Thank you for having me.
Farai Chideya:
That's Michelle Singletary, personal finance expert, author, and columnist with the Washington Post. Coming up next, our weekly roundtable Sippin' the Political Tea focuses on the Russian attack on Ukraine, with retired Major General Linda Singh and Wall Street Journal Moscow Bureau Chief Ann M. Simmons. You're listening to Our Body Politic. Each week on the show, we bring you a roundtable called Sippin' the Political Tea, and this week we focus on Ukraine.
President Biden:
Let me say it again. Our forces are not and will not be engaged in the conflict with Russia in Ukraine. Our forces are not going to Europe to fight in Ukraine, but to defend our NATO allies and reassure those allies in the East.
Farai Chideya:
Joining me this week is Dr. Linda Singh, retired major general and former head of the Maryland National Guard. She also served in Kosovo and Afghanistan. Welcome back, Dr. Singh.
Major General Linda Singh:
Thank you so much, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
And we're delighted to have Ann M. Simmons, Moscow Bureau Chief for the Wall Street Journal. Welcome, Ann.
Ann Simmons:
Thanks for having me, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
Ann, you're in Moscow. You've been reporting on this crisis every step of the way. Before we got started, you said you've been awake for two days, and we are so grateful to have you. So what is the current state of the attack in Ukraine?
Ann Simmons:
Well, things are moving really swiftly right now. The tension is really high. On Thursday morning, very early Thursday Moscow time, early for Russians because they tend to be late risers, at around quarter to 6:00 in the morning, President Putin went on television with an address to the nation and to the armed forces, basically alerting the nation that he had approved a special military operation in Ukraine's Eastern Donbas region. It was immediately knowing that then, "Okay, if that has been authorized, this means that tanks could begin rolling into Ukraine, into Eastern Ukraine." And it turns out that it wasn't just Eastern Ukraine. Today, we have seen attacks by the Russian military on several different parts of Ukraine, and even the sound of bombing and shelling in the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv.
Farai Chideya:
Retired Major General Singh, how prepared is Ukraine to defend their infrastructure? We have been seeing accounts of citizens young and old doing weapons training, including a member of parliament who considered himself a pacifist, and then decided he needed to pick up a gun. But it also appears Russia may have knocked out air defenses in a matter of hours. What is the infrastructure question?
Major General Linda Singh:
Farai, I think the challenge is that a country like Ukraine, as well as a number of others in that region, their military budget, their infrastructure budget, is very small. So when you think about the time that they spend in conjunction to what they would need for an invasion like this... And this is an invasion. This is not a "We're coming in to work with you." This is not "We're coming to train with you." This is an invasion. It's a land grab. And so when you think about that, there are some protections that Ukraine could have taken care of ahead of time in, for instance, cyber. They knew that their infrastructure was not ready and not sufficient. This is not the first time that they've had cyber attacks, and so they really should have done more to prepare themselves.
Major General Linda Singh:
And I think that we really have to figure out how are we going to engage and really intervene. And I hate to say that, but this is going to be what I would consider to be potentially another world war, because Russia is not going to stop, or Putin's not going to stop. I'm not going to say Russia as a country. Putin is not going to stop until he reestablishes the old Soviet Union. That is my fear, and I think that is going to cripple the overall society. That's going to cripple supply chain. That's going to cripple business. It's going to cripple humanity. So it is critical. Right now is a critical time for NATO to completely step forward and to surround our partners, or we're going to lose it, and then we are going to find ourselves in the middle of another World War III.
Farai Chideya:
That is tough stuff to hear, and important stuff to hear, and why we have you two incredible experts with us. I mean, I used to cover data security for The Intercept, including covering the massive Office of Personnel Management hack of millions of records by China, and both Russia and China have been affecting cyber warfare in the US as well as other parts of the world. One thing I think about... Ann, I listened to a podcast you did with the Wall Street Journal, and it talked a bit about sanctions, but also about how the dollar is still the number one global currency, and how sanctions really affect Russia's ability to transact in the US dollar, which will also affect supply chains, et cetera. So Ann, we've got military action, diplomatic action, and sanctions, which you spoke about in this podcast. How do those puzzle pieces fit together against the framework which Dr. Singh was talking about of a potential World War III?
Ann Simmons:
Oh, it's a really good question, Farai, especially from the economic perspective. Obviously, if there is World War III, that's going to be a geopolitical disaster. Even the incursion of Russia into Ukraine, that's already set the train in motion, if you wish. I think I'd like to focus on sanctions, because that obviously is what the US and Europe feel is a way of deterring Mr. Putin. But it's interesting. I mean, just to start with the initial measures that have been put into place earlier this week... There are more coming. The initial measures include things like blacklisting banks, halting the Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline, which is meant to take gas from Russia to Germany. The EU is also planning to sanction a host of individuals, officials, including actually the Russian defense minister, the country's Internet Research Agency, the foreign ministry spokeswoman, and several members of Russia's naval and army staff, so the defense ministry.
Ann Simmons:
And also, imports from and exports to the regions that the separatists... Calling them separatists now. The leaders of the Russian-held regions that have recently been recognized, there's going to be a ban on imports and exports to that region. And these are just a taste of what's to come. Stronger and more far-reaching sanctions in the works. But it won't just impact Russia, because obviously it's a global village when it comes to the economy, and all of these countries are interconnected. There has been talk about Russia possibly retaliating, and turning off the pipes in terms of gas to Europe, which would be disastrous.
Farai Chideya:
And wasn't there some hesitancy at first by Germany about reacting to Ukraine in regards to its ability to access fuel from Russia.
Ann Simmons:
Yes. Yes, indeed, there was. And there was that hesitancy, because obviously gas is like the lifeblood. Everyone depends on Russia. Not everyone, but a large percent of Europe depends on Russia for its gas, so there was indeed hesitancy. Russia, though, is ready. Russia has been preparing for a very, very long time in terms of sanctions. First of all, I should mention that Russia greeted the sanctions quite strongly, because they feel that they're being "illegitimately targeted" is what the spokeswoman said for the foreign ministry. And Russia has promised to retaliate against the West with a very strong response. They have not said what that response might be at this time, but rest assured, Russia very much always goes forth with tit-for-tat measures. And Russia has accused the West of trying to hinder its development, and said that this is why the West is serial sanctioning.
Ann Simmons:
Russia has also spent the last couple of years weaning itself off the US dollar, so trying to not have the dollar be the dominant currency that it depends on. It's also trying to diversify its trade portfolio and become less dependent on the European Union for export revenues. And the big kind of country in the picture here, if you wish, the friend in the picture, is China. So even if these sanctions go forward, Russia does have kind of a fallback plan and a friend in China. So all of the products that might be banned from the EU and from the United States, it's very likely that China could come to the rescue.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Sippin' the Political Tea on Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. This week, we're discussing the Russian attack on the Ukraine with Wall Street Journal Moscow Bureau Chief Ann M. Simmons, and Dr. Linda Singh, retired major general of the National Guard. If you're tuning in, you can catch the whole conversation on our podcast. Just find Our Body Politic wherever you listen to podcasts. And Dr. Singh, Farah Stockman of the New York Times argued in a recent piece that we are seeing the Russia-China alliance that president Nixon feared come together. So picking up on what Ann just said, does that ring true for you?
Major General Linda Singh:
Absolutely, and it's rang true for some time. I mean, we've seen this coming. We have tried to diplomatically deal with this, and I question whether sanctions will really work. We've never really seen them work to the level that they need to. And right now, I think that it's one of those attempts that's not going to help us be able to maneuver out of this in a way that's not going to have a significant loss. And I think what we're going to see is that if China does step to the rescue, we've got a serious, serious issue on our hands. And that doesn't mean that it's not serious already, but with all of the shortages, with everything that we have seen going on as a result of the pandemic, they picked the perfect time to really kind of take this forward, because we're already having challenges just with our supply chain.
Major General Linda Singh:
So what is that going to do if we have to go into a full-scale military operation, and nonetheless, a full-scale military operation maybe on two fronts? And that, to me... It scares me probably a little bit more than I'd like to lead on, because that's not a good place for us to be, not as a country and really not as a NATO element.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. And to follow up on that, we have just seen the withdrawal from Afghanistan, which was widely criticized in its execution, but often greeted with relief on some level that the US was beginning to pull back from certain global commitments, and at a time when many people say we need to focus on the home front. But what is going to happen to the US military now with this new twist in the geopolitical axes? I'm just going to be honest here. Do you think that the contemporary military is prepared?
Major General Linda Singh:
Well, I think that we have been looking more and more towards what it's going to take to really be back into our European theater. I mean, this is not something that we just woke up and thought about. I mean, this has been something that we focused on probably for the last decade more and more and more as times have gone on, because we've seen that we've needed to kind of re-shift our focus, training, and thinking. And so I would say that we are still, we, i.e., the US and then as a NATO element, are still the best course of action. So if we stand firmly as a NATO element, that means our partner's standing beside us. Then we can really kind of put the bear back in the box, but it's not going to be done overnight. I think we're probably in for something that's going to take us just a little bit longer, and it could potentially get us back into another conflict. And that would be something that I'm not wanting to happen, but I just feel like it's going to happen.
Farai Chideya:
We're hearing very different things from current and former US administrations. The Biden-Harris administration has been speaking out about Ukraine, but former President Trump praised Putin's actions in Ukraine. Let's take a listen to an interview he did from Mar-a-Lago this week.
Donald Trump:
Putin declares a big portion of Ukraine... Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful. So Putin is now saying it's independent, a large section of Ukraine. I said, "How smart is that?" And he's going to go in and be a peacekeeper. That's the strongest peace force. We could use that on our Southern border. That's the strongest peace force I've ever seen. There were more army tanks than I've ever seen. They're going to keep peace, all right.
Farai Chideya:
Ann, from your perch in Moscow, working tirelessly to bring us the story, how do you see the road ahead for the United States?
Ann Simmons:
Well, if we look at the role that the United States is playing in this crisis, obviously from the very beginning, they have wanted to stick to the negotiation table, but they've met kind of a bully in Mr. Putin. He has not listened. Some analysts have said that Mr. Putin actually views Mr. Biden as being a weak opponent, and that is why he's taken advantage of this moment. It's very interesting, the comments that former President Trump has made, because Mr. Putin and Mr. Trump had quite a good relationship. And people are questioning now: Why would the former president go against the current president with this type of rhetoric in terms of supporting someone, is basically violating all of the international norms, violating human rights, and has no respect for a nation that is sovereign and independent?
Farai Chideya:
Dr. Singh, how do you parse out the pathways ahead for the United States?
Major General Linda Singh:
Well, so first off, just the overall comments about the messaging. I mean, they are such opposing views. And when I think about the prior leadership and kind of the rhetoric around saying they praise this, well, that's an individual, and a group that has no respect for humanity, has no respect for the rules, has no respect for anything terms of democracy. And then when I look at the current administration, they need to stand fast. They need to hold, and they need to step forth with a sharp, pointy... And I hate to say knife, but to cut through all the noise to kind of deal with this in a manner that really stands for what the US people as a whole stand for. Not the partial group, and not the ones that kind of supported the last administration, where we're going to try to incite a world war here on the US continent.
Major General Linda Singh:
We need to get back to what's fundamentally right with the US and how we are going to stand with our partners, and that means solidarity. That means providing leadership. And stop giving in to this cowardice crap of, "Oh, I praise you for this." No, you don't praise someone for doing something that is so fundamentally wrong against humanity. And so as far as my perspective, we need to stand strong as a country. Our leadership needs to know that we, the US people, are behind them. We wouldn't want this to be done here in our country, and so why would we allow it to happen somewhere else around the world?
Farai Chideya:
We're going to leave it there. This is heavy stuff, and I hope that we can come back to both of you for more guidance. Dr. Singh, thank you for joining us again.
Major General Linda Singh:
Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
And Ann, thank you so much for joining us.
Ann Simmons:
Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
That was Dr. Linda Singh, former head of the Maryland National Guard, and Ann M. Simmons, Moscow Bureau Chief for the Wall Street Journal.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts. Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm the executive producer and host, Farai Chideya. Our Co-executive producer is Jonathan Blakely. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booker and producer. Emily J. Daly is our producer. Our associate producer is Natyna Bean.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced by Lauren Schild and engineered by Roc Lee and Archie Moore.
Farai Chideya:
This program is produced with support from Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, the Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath and J.J. Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.