On this episode of Our Body Politic, guest host Karen Grigsby Bates talks about redistricting and newly redrawn maps in Alabama with Marina Jenkins, executive director of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. Then Karen looks at redistricting on the city level with Los Angeles City Council Member Nithya Raman who represents the 4th district. We round out the show with Karen speaking with Jenisha Watts, senior editor at The Atlantic about her October cover story which details her upbringing in a crack house in Lexington, Kentucky.
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This is Our Body Politic. I'm Karen Grigsby Bates, founding member of NPR's Code Switch team. Sitting in for Farai Chideya. Iit can be easy to forget, but there's more to politics than the 2024 presidential race. This November, city and state elections are taking center stage, and so is redistricting. All around the country, we're seeing drawn out conflicts over gerrymandering. But maybe the longest running saga comes out of Alabama. Republican state officials there have repeatedly resisted court orders to increase representation for Black voters. The latest chapter of this years long fight involved a court appointed special master who took over the job of drawing congressional maps for the state. Joining me now is Marina Jenkins, executive director of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. The NDRC has been involved in some of the Alabama litigation for years. Marina, thanks for joining me.
Marina Jenkins [00:02:07] Thank you for having me.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:02:09] Marina, the redistricting process these days seems like a political battlefront in ways we have not seen historically. It feels like several states are tied up in court over new maps like Louisiana, like Florida, like Georgia. We're going to talk Alabama specifically. But before we get to Alabama, could you talk about why we've been seeing so many of these conflicts in the last handful of years?
Marina Jenkins [00:02:33] We are in what we've been calling an era of perpetual redistricting. You know, in the past, we would see the redistricting cycle be a decennial cycle. You'd have the census happen in, you know, the ten year, 1990, 2000, 2010, 2020, and then you'd have the redistricting that would occur in all 50 states. Each state has its own process, and you'd see that in the one or two year, and then it'd be done until the next go round. And really, in the past decade, that just hasn't been the case. And I think that the reason is that redistricting became, in the last decade, a real tool that, you know, folks who are interested in retaining political power really abused. When we're talking to people about redistricting and gerrymandering. You know, one sort of very basic point to start with is all of our states have to redistrict, but you don't have to gerrymander. Right? And so just to make sure people understand that distinction. And I think that the increase and the excessiveness of the gerrymandering has become so egregious over the past several years. And, you know, the fight has really just ratcheted up to ensure that voters are getting a fair shake and that they're getting equal access to the ballot box through these districts. Because how the districts are drawn ultimately determines what level of access a voter has, because the power of their vote can be diminished or increased By the way these lines are drawn.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:04:05] Alabama's unique in the sense that it's one of those states where we're seeing pretty open defiance of court orders in the redistricting process. Can you give me a brief rundown of what's been happening in Alabama and where things currently stand?
Marina Jenkins [00:04:20] Sure. So to take it back about a year and a half, we had great success in our initial challenge to the Alabama congressional map. The NDRC’s 501C3 affiliate, The National Redistricting Foundation, has been supporting a group of plaintiffs in challenging the map. And the map was struck down initially by a trial court in Alabama. This was a three judge panel comprised of two district court judges and one appellate court judge in the federal system. This is how many redistricting cases get adjudicated. And that court said this map very clearly violates Section 2.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:05:01] Sort of give me the elevator definition of section 2 and why it's important.
Marina Jenkins [00:05:06] To section 2 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 is a law that prohibits the dilution of voting power for protected voters. So, you know, oftentimes that's voters of color, but that also could include indigenous communities and Native Americans, in their communities. So the important tool in Section two is an effects test. So in racial gerrymandering cases, you look to the intent of the map drawer or the person passing a law about voting rights. And you have to think about did they intend to discriminate? In… under section 2 you don't have to think about what's in the mind of the person who has passed that law. You just have to look at what is the impact. And that's an incredibly powerful tool because you can look at the data and prove that folks are being discriminated against by the system that has been set up. Without casting an aspersion on a particular person or without having to prove that, you know, that there was some malfeasance in the mind of the person who made that decision to pass that law. So it's just a really, really powerful tool for that, for that reason.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:06:24] Okay. So you're saying that the judges in Alabama found that this map diluted the voting power of Black voters?
Marina Jenkins [00:06:30] It was a 2, almost 250 page opinion, very thorough. And then you got the Supreme Court coming in at that point and saying, no, no, no, we're going to hold this remedy. We're going to stay it and we're going to consider this case. And so last fall, almost exactly a year ago, the Supreme Court considered this case, held oral argument, heard the state of Alabama's complaints about the way that the trial court handled this case or what the outcome was. And in June, we got the decision in the case, Allen v Mulligan, where the Supreme Court said the trial court was correct. The Supreme Court affirmed the trial court's decision that said Section two is alive and well. This is well-settled precedent. And so that was just a groundbreaking decision, not so much because it changed the law, but because the Supreme Court actually upheld the law, which I think many, many folks were not expecting.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:07:21] Given the court's current composition…
Marina Jenkins [00:07:24] Given the court's current composition. And, you know, what we saw come out of the court in the Dobbs decision where, you know, the court did start to seem very comfortable overturning longstanding precedent. And so that was the case here, where we knew we were right on the law. We knew we had the facts to prove this case. This was a good meritorious case to bring. But you still had to wonder, you know, is this a court that is just looking to, you know, sort of flip everything on its head because they can? And so in this case, you know, it was a it was a critical and significant case because they didn't do that and because they upheld the law. And, you know, I think a lot of folks on the right who were expecting them to do something different were not ready to comply with that decision. And I think what we saw in Alabama this summer was just that was the Republicans in Alabama really just did not want to comply. And so they didn't. You had a Congress member saying, you know, when asked, is it all right for the state of Alabama to defy federal court order? He said, by all means, you know, it was just this comfort level and really sort of petulant response of we're just not going to do this. We saw again, once the trial court said, no, no, no, you have to do this. We're going to do this. You know, this order is going to be enforced and this map is going to be changed. And they went again to the Supreme Court just a few weeks ago. And again, the Supreme Court refused to intervene. So the Supreme Court has made itself clear. The trial court has been nothing but crystal clear. And we're expecting that in 2024, Black voters in Alabama will have the opportunity to elect candidates of their choice in two of the state's congressional districts, where previously that was true in just one. So it's a it's a really significant victory and just a really great moment for for voters.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:09:17] How has the National Democratic Redistricting Committee been involved in Alabama, specifically?
Marina Jenkins [00:09:23] Through our C3 affiliate, the National Redistricting Foundation, this is actually our second case in Alabama. When I when I started my previous role at the organization was as our litigation director. And I started in late 2017 and the organization had just been founded. And our very first goal was to bring Section 2 cases in Alabama, Louisiana and Georgia. And so in 2018, I traveled to all of those states, including Birmingham and Huntsville and a number of places in Alabama, to talk to folks there who've been in this fight for a long time. You know, we were a new organization. We wanted to add value and see, you know, where we could, you know, put some fire under fights that have been already going on for a long time. And so, you know, we brought those cases in 2018. Ultimately, you know, it was late in the decade, you know, that that we sort of came too close to the 2020 cycle. And so the cases were dismissed based on that, that timing. But as soon as, you know, we got the the new maps in 2021. And of course, in Alabama, as with, you know, the other states basically passed almost the same maps. Right. And so these were existing problems. This is not you know, this was not a new, you know, problem of vote dilution in Alabama. And so we were ready the second time around to bring this case immediately, as soon as the map was drawn and to be able to try and move the litigation. And frankly, but for the U.S. Supreme Court's intervention in a case that they ultimately affirmed completely, you know, Black voters in Alabama should have had that new map for 2022. So this is already, you know, justice delayed in a sense. But we're still very, very happy. Happy to have that and you know, this this case is has just been such a centerpiece and such a, you know, focus of dedication for our organization for a long time.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:11:17] Although… I have to say that in 1954 with Brown V Board, people thought it was an amazing victory that the Supreme Court had decided and the state of Virginia said, you can decide what you want, we're not doing this. And so took several ways of defying the court, sometimes outright and sometimes in a more covert manner with the establishment of their Christian academies and other things to the effect that true school integration in Virginia did not come for a couple of decades after Brown was decided. What happens if in Alabama there's the same kind of foot dragging?
Marina Jenkins [00:12:00] I think it's a really important point to keep in consideration. You know, in Alabama, I do believe that for the moment that we will have success here and that the voters will be able to have a fair map for 2024 at least. But I think you're right that the fight is not over. Right? I think what the attorney general in Alabama has indicated is that they are standing down for the moment, but that they believe that basically compliance with Section 2 violates the equal protection clause under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution and is essentially racial gerrymandering. So the argument they've been making is, well, if if you're even considering race as if race is, is, this a factor in how you're drawing the lines, that's racial gerrymandering. Right. And the nuance that is being missed, I think intentionally is it is actually great to think about race along with all of these other factors, along with all of these other considerations as you're drawing the lines in order to provide fair representation that takes into account the communities that are being represented and how those communities ought to be brought together ought to be separated, whatever is appropriate for the people in that state. And so I think, you know, what you see is a desire, much like, you know, in the affirmative action cases by those on the right to say, well, you just can't even say it. You can't even think it, you can't even look at racial data. You can't you know, it has no role to play here. And if you allow it a role, that's racial gerrymandering. And so I think that that's going to be the next chapter of this fight that they're going to try to take basically the affirmative action decision and, you know, overlay that on this redistricting framework and try to make that argument before the court in another year or so.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:14:01] Does it look like in some cases the noncompliance is directed at perhaps preserving power in a way that normally would come to voting? So if I want to keep you in office, I vote for you. Because if you don't get voted in or if you've got some time before you're voted out, then passing legislation to gerrymander may be another way, a backdoor way of doing this.
Marina Jenkins [00:14:28] That's exactly right. It's a form of voter suppression is a, is an easy way to think about it. You know, the way that so many states redistrict is through normal legislation. So if, you know, a party has political power in a particular state and they want to keep that power, notwithstanding what the voters say in a given election, they can draw the districts to ensure that they retain that political power, even if the voters say, no, no, we want something different. The way that they draw those lines can ensure that they hold on to their political power once they have it. It's sort of that self-fulfilling, you know, ability for them to self serve in that way by drawing the maps in a way that's really as favorable to their own political party.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:15:13] Marina, when it comes to Alabama, fights over voting rights is something of a tradition in the state. I'm thinking of the landmark Supreme Court decision, Shelby v Holder, which of course originates from surprise, Alabama. Can you tell us about that decision and how it led to where we are this minute?
Marina Jenkins [00:15:32] Yeah, the Shelby County decision was disastrous. And I will say in our organization, under the leadership of our chairman, former Attorney General Eric Holder, we just called that case Shelby County. We don't… he doesn't want it attributed to him in any other way because it was just so terrible. And the impacts on voting and voting access across the country just can't be under told. You know, the… within minutes, within minutes of the case coming down, states were passing restrictive voting measures. Within hours, it multiplied across the country within days even, they were ready. There were, you know, poll locations being closed. New legislation being passed to restrict access on early voting, on alternative access measures. And it was really disastrous. And so I think since then and it's been ten years since that decision, I think we've really seen a degradation of voting access in a really terrible way.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:16:45] The previous voting rights legislation at the federal level have been pretty bipartisan. What's changed?
Marina Jenkins [00:16:54] It's really disappointing, I think, to think about that. The Voting Rights Act had always been passed and a bipartisan basis signed into law by Republican presidents, you know, most recently in 2006 by George W Bush. And the fact that we're now in a position where democracy itself and, you know, access to equal voting rights is a partisan issue. You know, I don't know how to explain it other than just that this is sort of where we are in in the current political age. And it's it's you know, it's just too bad, really.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:17:39] Although it looks like pushback is increasing. Many of the lawsuits that we're seeing don't just come from organizations like yours, but they come from groups of voters, of citizens. So do you think these cases have the net effect of getting more people to pay attention to redistricting, or is there just too much going on on the political landscape? Everybody's distracted. Nobody can really settle down and focus on what's at stake here?
Marina Jenkins [00:18:06] I do think we've seen an increase in engagement around redistricting by voters and more so, you know, than we have in the past. It can be a kind of a wonky issue, right? It doesn't seem immediately accessible. But one thing our organization has been really focused on since our founding has been making it accessible, reaching everyday folks who have a hundred things to worry about before they even know who's on their ballot, let alone where their congressional lines have been drawn. Right. It is it's it's it's you can feel a little academic. And so I do think having these cases be successful, having them in the news, you know, being able to talk to folks about it, to work with other organizations. You know, we have a advocacy campaign arm of our organization that's called All on the Line. And we named it that because redistricting is foundational to everything else. So if you care about any number of different issues, redistricting is going to impact your ability to see progress, legislative progress on those issues, because that's how the composition of the legislature in your state is determined. Right. And so everything is sort of plays off of what the maps do and whether or not they are translating voter interest, voter desires into policy. You know, the redistricting is the bridge that gets you between those two things. And so I think once we're able to have that, you know, have this conversation with folks and be able to provide, you know, education around it and just information and give folks that level of information, it really is so fundamental. And so I think we've had you know, we've seen real success in being able to bring so many more people into the conversation around redistricting.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:20:01] One thing that's not slowing down is the political calendar for the coming year, 2024 is sort of hurtling towards us, even as some of these redistricting fights are going on… they're cutting it pretty close, I think. What kind of impact do you see these cases having on the 2024 election cycle?
Marina Jenkins [00:20:24] We'll see a number of state maps continue to change, probably even into April of next year. I think, you know, certainly we're going to see a new map in Alabama, Louisiana. The fight is ongoing. That's moving. It's in the remedial phase already. So I think that's a state more actively expecting, you know, a new map. Georgia, a trial just concluded on Georgia's congressional map as well as its state legislative maps. In Florida, Governor DeSantis very blatantly forced through his map that dismantled a district that had been a performing district for Black voters. And so we obtained an injunction against that map. And that is in the appeals process in the Florida state court system right now. But that's a state that could definitely change. And then there are a number of others. There is, as you noted at the top, an incredible amount of activity and movement in redistricting processes across the country. So I do think we'll see a lot of change still to come before the 2024 elections.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:21:27] I'm listening to you describe all this change and all these things that are evaporating and being put in different places. And I'm thinking of this cartoon, you know, this like Wile E Coyote going somewhere and all of a sudden the ground beneath him disappears. I mean, what does this mean for candidates who might want to run in these states? I'm starting out thinking I need to target this demographic and I need to go talk to these folks and all of a sudden they're not in my district anymore. How's that going to work and how does that affect people who may be very interested in serving their communities, but they're not sure what their communities are going to be as the year goes on. Because this has been so fluid.
Marina Jenkins [00:22:08] In these cases, you'll start to see an argument around what's called the Purcell Doctrine that has been used and sometimes abused to sort of create some moment where it is just too late and it causes too much confusion and it's too hard on the system. And so there is this question legally of at what point does a court case have to sort of just hit pause or not hit pause, but just sort of accept in that moment, okay, this isn't going to happen in time for this election. You know, the case can keep moving, but you know that the election has to happen under this map, even though it has been called into question. And so, you know, as I noted, I think unfortunately, the Purcell argument has been misused many times by courts where it feels like that's kind of ridiculous. You know, for example, this day in Alabama, you know, the U.S. Supreme Court issued its stay in Alabama in January of 2022. You know, and sort of at that point, the idea that, you know, the state couldn't get a new map for that year because it was just too close to the elections seemed like nonsense. And so it feels like an excuse more than anything else. Sometimes it's real. Sometimes, you know, these election administrators are under incredible pressure as it is, and we don't want to add to that. But at the same time, if it's a question of offering voters equal access to the ballot, where do you find that balance? And that's that's the question that we have to ask.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:23:35] As the young folks might say. That's a lot. Marina Jenkins is the executive director of the National Redistricting Committee. Thank you so much for joining us today and for helping us to sort this out.
Marina Jenkins [00:23:48] Thank you for having me.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:23:49] We spoke with Marina just before Alabama locked in a new map. Since then, the state adopted one that does indeed add another congressional district favoring Black voters. We reached back out to Marina to get her reaction.
Marina Jenkins [00:24:03] We're incredibly excited about the new map. This is the first time that Alabama voters will get appropriate representation. The state of Alabama has never expanded the franchise to Black voters on its own accord. And this is the second time that Alabama has been forced by a court to expand the franchise through redistricting to Black voters and it's incredibly exciting. What it means is that voters in Alabama will have representation in Congress that looks more like them, that reflects the values that they hold and the policy preferences that they have. You know, this is what our organization works for, is to have, you know, a government both at a national level and at a state level that actually translates the will of voters into policy, into lawmaking.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:24:57] We turn next to the West Coast. By now, you've probably heard of the L.A. City Council scandal, where leaked audio captured council members Nury Martinez , Kevin De León and Gil Cedillo in a closed door meeting with L.A. County Federation of Labor President Ron Herrera, using racist language and plotting political power grabs. The leaked audio captured national attention because of the racist language, but the focus of that meeting was on how to maintain their grip on power during the once in a decade redistricting process.
Nury Martinez [00:25:32] It serves us to not give her all of p town. Because If you do, that solidifies her renters district. And that is not a good idea. You have to keep her on the fence.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:25:39] That was former City Council President Nury Martinez on that infamous tape. And the “her” in question is council member Nithya Raman. We're joined by Councilmember Raman now. She represents Los Angeles District four, which stretches from upscale trendy Silverlake to parts of suburban Reseda. She's an urban planner, a working mother and an immigrant. She ran for city council in 2019, and in 2020, she won a historic victory, becoming the first Asian-American woman and the first South Asian ever to serve on the city council. Councilmember Raman, welcome to Our Body Politic.
Nithya Raman [00:26:19] Thank you so much for having me.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:26:22] So as I mentioned at the top, the political brawl of redistricting in Los Angeles got less attention than the racist remarks and the subsequent chaos surrounding the former council members. Why are district lines in Los Angeles so important, and how were they created?
Nithya Raman [00:26:39] District lines are important here in the city of Los Angeles because we have some of the largest council districts in the entire country. For a city of 4 million, we only have 15 council members. And so each council district is 250 to 260,000 people. And because we have a weak mayor strong council system, each individual council member has a lot of power in L.A., particularly over issues like land use. A lot of council members or every council member actually has a huge amount of say over what gets built and what doesn't get built in their own districts. We make policies and the mayor really has to work with us in order to shape policies in the city. And we have a huge amount of control over the city budget as well. The mayor puts forward a budget, but the council has to approve it and can make significant changes to it. And so being a council member here, it's a powerful position.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:27:39] And I want people to understand the size of the districts that council members are responsible for because really, they're not just neighborhoods. They're like small to medium sized cities. I've heard them often referred to as little fiefdoms because they are so under the control of individual council members.
Nithya Raman [00:28:01] Exactly. And we've seen the impacts of that on our city council as well. As you can see from repeated recent criminal indictments over corruption.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:28:12] Yeah, we're going to talk about that in a minute. First, I want to ask you about the redistricting process of all of the 15 districts. Your board has changed the most. One day you had this much to represent and this kind of population to represent, and then you woke up the next day and 40% of your district had been reallocated to other people. Talk about that a little bit.
Nithya Raman [00:28:40] Yeah, the shape of my district really changed. Most of the council members were involved in the redistricting process, I think really wanted to preserve their existing districts because it was the district that elected them and so they knew they could win it again. And I think there were some changes that were necessary because of population changes and some responses to community organizing, like Koreatown in the previous redistricting cycle had been split into four different council districts, and there was a really big push that was honored to put Koreatown into one district. And I think that was a great thing. But they wanted to make those changes in ways that didn't impact the majority of council districts. So the council district that they picked apart to make up for all those population imbalances was mine.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:29:25] The new kids?
Nithya Raman [00:29:28] Yes, the new kids. Exactly. And so my council district, which used to include a portion of Koreatown, it used to include the Mid-City neighborhoods. It used to include many more neighborhoods in Hollywood. All of that was taken away from me. And my neighborhood basically moved into the southern San Fernando Valley, which frankly, I mean, I love my new neighborhood. So, you know, it hasn't been a burden to represent them at all. In fact, it's been a joy. But it was a huge, huge change.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:29:55] In that now infamous leaked tape, the audio of the city council meeting, former Council President Nury Martinez talks about you saying it didn't serve them to give you a district with renters. What's so powerful about renters?
Nithya Raman [00:30:17] One thing that was unique about my election and the election that brought me into power was that we really expanded who voted in a city council race. So in the previous council election that had brought the incumbent that I ran against into power, a total of 24,000 people had voted. In my general election 130,000 people voted. And so we had basically brought an extra 100,000 people into the political process. Partly that happened because of the change in election timings. Elections used to happen on off year cycles and then they became overlapping with federal election. But it was also that we in our district really went out and did a huge amount of voter outreach. So we were knocking on doors in apartment buildings and most people were hearing from their local political officials for the very, very first time. And we told them, you know, this city that has a huge amount of power over renters, it has the capacity to regulate tenant protections. It has the capacity to help prevent evictions much more robustly than it had been. We went out and told people that the city could do more to help you. In a city where housing and security is like the most important fact of life here in L.A.. And so I think the reason why renters were being taken away from me was because I was, at least in recent memory, the first candidate that had really spoken to renters during my campaign and spoken about renters issues as central to my platform.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:32:01] I'm trying to imagine the shock of someone who lived in your old district opening the door and finding an actual political representative on the other side. Like what? Really? You want information from me? You want my opinion because we don't get asked that a lot. We got get talked to, but not necessarily talked with. And I think that probably made a huge difference. After Koreatown was united into District 10, former Councilmember Mark Ridley-Thomas was suspended due to his conviction for federal corruption, bribery and wire fraud. As you mentioned earlier, there have been a lot of council scandals. Why are we seeing this happening over and over again? And is there something about Los Angeles itself that enables this kind of abuse?
Nithya Raman [00:32:56] Well, I certainly hope not, because I'm serving on the body. I want to make sure that you know, nothing about this role is inherently corrupting. But I do think there are a lot of issues with the way that we've set up decision making in the city, which lends itself to this kind of issue. Now, Mark Ridley-Thomas case was a little different. The issues that he was dealing with happened when he was at the county supervisor level. Yeah. Yes, exactly. But if you remember the cases of Jose Luis Ah or Mitch Englander, these were cases where developers who were trying to do business in the city in cases were giving bags of cash under the table to their elected representatives and to their family members in return for exactly those kinds of permissions, the land use changes that I was talking about earlier.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:33:52] It sounds so 1930s. You know, if somebody told me that this was happening when Los Angeles was still developing, it's like the Chinatown scenario as opposed to what should be a modern L.A. Scenario except…
Nithya Raman [00:34:04] it happened then too. You know, this has been a fact of L.A. city politics for a very long time. In fact, when the first land use plan was adopted for the city of los Angeles, as soon as that happened, there were council members who were making changes to land use categories that had been defined in the plan in return for political favors. So this, you know, the way that L.A. is set up, I think there is a problem with it. And I do think in order to address corruption, we do have to be able to tackle the issue of land use.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:34:38] If I remember correctly, you're one of the people who feels as if the council needs to be expanded for the size of the city and the number of people that are being represented now per council person, perhaps they could be better served if more council members were added because they could pay closer attention to a smaller parcel of Los Angeles. Tell me why you think that's important.
Nithya Raman [00:35:07] Well, 260,000 constituents is a lot of constituents. And for me, my ideal vision of what a good city government should be is a city government that doesn't just wait for you to come to it, that it comes to you by showing up at farmer's markets, by showing up at your doorstep telling you about new city programs. As a current representative, I will say that it's very hard to do that for a district of this size. And believe me, I am trying.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:35:39] Mm hmm.
Nithya Raman [00:35:40] But I think if I had a smaller district, I could be much more present and my staff could be much more present in every single neighborhood that I represent than we are right now. And I really feel like at this lowest level of government, you need to be able to have as intimate a relationship as possible with your local elected representative.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:36:01] This kind of big box politics as opposed to retail politics that you'd like to practice because there are just so many people.
Nithya Raman [00:36:08] Yes, exactly. But it is hard to do that right now. It is hard to do that at the level that we should be doing that in a city this size and in a city that's this important. So I like to think of it less as expanding the size of council and more as decreasing the size of individual council districts.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:36:26] When could something like this happen?
Nithya Raman [00:36:29] Well, the number of council districts is baked into the city charter. And so what we would have to do is to put an amendment to the charter in front of voters and the ad hoc Committee on Governance Reform, which I actually proposed, the creation of this governance reform committee after the tapes came out. That committee is now considering a charter amendment which will go in front of voters in November of next year, both to institute an independent redistricting process to make sure what happened this last cycle never happens again, and also potentially to expand the number of districts. The question is how many districts do council members who are currently on the council want to see on the ballot? And I think it remains to be seen what will actually go in front of voters in November next year.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:37:20] Council member Nithya Raman represents Los Angeles's fourth District and it was really a pleasure having you today.
Nithya Raman [00:37:27] Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was this was a fun conversation. And I'm a fan.
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Karen Grigsby Bates [00:37:56] Jenisha Watts is senior editor at The Atlantic. And in the magazine's October cover story, she shared her account of growing up in a crack house in Lexington, Kentucky. It's a story she had largely kept secret until now. Our Body Politic host and creator Farai Chideya spoke with Jenisha about how she traced a family history of poverty and abuse that goes back generations. And a warning they briefly speak about sexual assault. So please take care of yourself when listening.
Farai Chideya [00:38:27] It's an incredible, incredible piece of work. It's so personal and it's a family history. But to me, it's also a history of family, meaning family is what works and what doesn't work. Family is the love you get and the pain you get sometimes and sometimes the pain you give. And I just thank you for it because my own family, who I love dearly, doesn't have the same story. But there are stories of addiction in my family, stories of sexual abuse in my family. And you go there and it's brave and it's beautifully written. So, first of all, just thank you.
Jenisha Watts [00:39:02] Wow. Thank you.
Farai Chideya [00:39:04] You said that at one point this was supposed to be a piece about how you got started in journalism. But you write, quote, I couldn't write about myself without writing about my family. How did you get from what was going to be a how I got started in the business piece to family business piece?
Jenisha Watts [00:39:23] My first thing was I was just writing out just a lot of stuff that I remembered. And when I turned in a draft, I said, like, this is what I have. And my editor was like, well, can you tell us more about, you know, your childhood in Lexington? The more I think about it, I was afforded the time and the privilege to just think more and meditate on my life and think about more of the whole photo versus just focusing in on on New York. I just had more time to think it through. Like I've been working on this story for almost two years. Almost over two years.
Farai Chideya [00:39:58] I mean, your writing is also so beautiful. At one point you had been visiting with your brother, who has a lot of damage from the family situation. And you write, “Sadness hit me like a gob of spit.” And that's such a short phrase, but it's such an evocative phrase. And to me, that image of the gob of spit is also about disdain. What made you break through those feelings, including feelings of guilt, survivor's guilt as the oldest of five. You know, what was it like to talk to your family members to get what you needed for this piece?
Jenisha Watts [00:40:36] It was difficult. And I'll say it's fascinating that you brought up my brother because my siblings have always been the most supportive, supportive and just like proud of me. And I think with talking to Kobe and, you know, just all my siblings, I think I was just trying to also answer questions inside myself and kind of maybe reckon with my own guilt and my own success and also for like leaving them. So, like, so Kobe, you know, I'm very close to him and I don't know, I guess I'm maybe even getting emotional now because he called me last night and he hasn't been able to see the article. He hasn't been able to listen to the podcast because now he's in jail.
Farai Chideya [00:41:23] Oh, I'm so sorry.
Jenisha Watts [00:41:25] And it was just difficult. It was difficult writing about the siblings. It was difficult writing about my siblings because, you know, I would never take for granted that I just had more opportunities than them. Yeah, you know, and that's always hard.
Farai Chideya [00:41:40] Can you give us a little bit of the overview of your family's story? Because we've been talking about some of the emotional costs and how you started writing this story. How would you summarize it for people who haven't read it yet? And people really need to read it. They need to read this article.
Jenisha Watts [00:41:57] Yeah, How would I summarize? I’ll summarize it… I was the oldest of five children. My mom was addicted to crack cocaine, so she gets sucked into. So I grew up in the crack epidemic. All the things that I guess people think about when drugs are involved. So we dealt with a lot of neglect. We lived in the Salvation Army. My grandmother ended up raising me when I was in the fifth grade and she gave me a more stable life. But with that is the reminder of everything that her daughter's not. And I think sometimes it forced her to be more strict on me and hard on me. And then the thing too is that I pretended a lot, but once I finally left home to go to college, I created a new life for myself and pretended and also just worked hard to not turn out like my mom and more so to make my grandmother proud. I don't know if it's a good summary, but.
Farai Chideya [00:43:03] Oh yeah, it is. I mean, and you start with an incredible chance, like sort of being with Black literary royalty. I won't spoil the opening of the piece, but, you know, there's a lot of people who have risen, who had to rise through pain, had to rise through trauma, including some of the Black literary lions that you are with in the start of your piece. But, you know, just pulling out another brief bit of the article at one point you go into your grandmother's room and call her momma and she says, I'm not your mama. What did that feel like?
Jenisha Watts [00:43:38] Maybe I think at that moment I realized that I didn't have that… that closeness that I perhaps yearned for because she was the only one that I called Mama. Like I didn't call and never called her my mama.
Farai Chideya - You call her Trina.
Jenisha Watts - I call her Trina, yeah. And I think maybe it would just, you know, maybe embarrassment because, you know, I had always I always was calling her mama, and maybe it was just a lot of it was just also just embarrassment because she was just like, you know, I'm not your mama. But if she didn't say it in a mean way, it was just more of a way of just like, look, I'm not your mom. Like, you know.
Farai Chideya [00:44:10] I mean, did she ever make you feel like a burden? I mean, I'm saying that because my mother, who is also an incredible woman who I love very much and she loves me very much. She basically didn't get to have the career she wanted to have as a journalist, which she had been as a young woman, in part because she had children. And every now and then I felt guilty about it. It wasn't my fault, but it made me feel guilty that in addition to racism and sexism, that being the mother of young children pretty much ruined her career.
Jenisha Watts [00:44:42] Mm hmm. Yeah. I want to say, I don't know if it's more of a burden, but I think with her, she may disagree. So. I'm sorry, Granny, but I think for her, it was almost more of being ashamed. I think growing up, you know, she gave me stability, But I always knew that, you know, I wasn't, you know, maybe pretty enough or I wasn't as accomplished to make her proud. Like I wasn't. I have uncles who were gifted in sports, and I was also gifted in sports. And I was like, ok. But I think that a lot with me was just not being enough.
Farai Chideya [00:45:23] Yeah. Well, speaking of sports, your mother, Trina, was apparently lightning fast at track. You have a picture of her at prom as a beautiful young woman. So when did her life turn? When did your mother's life turn?
Jenisha Watts [00:45:41] I think maybe. Perhaps at the…when she reported that she was raped by her stepfather. And I think maybe the second time is when she first started using drugs. And I think it was like with my brother.
Farai Chideya [00:45:57] Yeah. And you write in your article that her stepfather raped her, was arrested. It was written up in the paper. Your grandmother kicked him out, but then she took him back in. What do you think that might have done to your mom?
Jenisha Watts [00:46:15] I mean, she talks about it. I think it… like she wasn't enough. I think that, you know, like her mom didn't…didn't love her, you know? And of course, like I said, my grandmother has a different version. But I think my mom. She just has always wanted to be loved by her mom. And I feel like she's just never feels like she's been able to get it. Yeah.
Farai Chideya [00:46:38] And again, this is a cover story in The Atlantic. It's a big thing and a beautiful, beautiful piece of writing. And you also kept your story secret for so long. You talk about working really hard as you were getting your journalism career going in New York to keep that world entirely firewalled from the world you grew up in, in Kentucky. So what kind of toll do you think living two lives had on you?
Jenisha Watts [00:47:10] Well, you have to try to keep up with the lies, the different lies. I think it caused me a lot of anxiety. I think I had a lot of anxiety, a lot of insecurity, because, you know, I just had this facade, like I was always kind of pretending.
Farai Chideya [00:47:28] Yeah. You write about the right kind of Black. There's a stereotype about, you know, ambitious Black people trying to be white. But it's not about that. It's about like, oh, are you you know, I mean, I go to Martha's Vineyard, but like, are you a Martha's Vineyard Black person? So what kind of Black person did you want to project to being in these newsrooms as your career was growing?
Jenisha Watts [00:47:51] I wanted to project to be a Black person that was raised in a two parent home that had successful parents. Both parents worked. That had connections and like to say your point, like, you know, to go to the Martha's Vineyard, you know, during August, like August is like the big time. And also the parents, you know, give you allowance, give you a monthly allowance, and not just the burden of me being the person like sending money back home for me. But people calling me and say like, oh, I need help with my cell phone bill, my light bill. Like, I didn't want to be there, but I wanted to come from more from the family were like they, you know, took care of me. Like I could call my mom and cry to her and tell her, you know, like, what was happening to me. You know, she gives me advice versus the other way around. So I think that’s how I kind of wanted to project. Yeah.
Farai Chideya [00:48:44] I mean, in South Africa they use the phrase the Black tax for the people who are rising and then who have to send all the money back home. And I have also sent money over the years to family both in Africa and the U.S. and at times found it really stressful. What was it like? Because New York, being a young journalist in New York is not like being a young financial analyst in New York. You are not floating in money. So what is it like to get that call about like, I need somebody to help me pay my bill or or you won't be able to reach me because I won't have a phone?
Jenisha Watts [00:49:15] It was it was stressful because, you know, I didn't have it. I mean, it was times when I would have to pay my mom's bill and then it put me in a negative, like the next week. Yeah. Also, to a lot of it was just anger. But I did it out of just guilt and obligation. I didn't want to. I wanted to say no, but I just felt bad because I'm like, okay, I'm living in New York. They still in Kentucky, they're struggling. They're crying. Let me just do this. Like, maybe I can, like, not have lunch one day or, you know, not go out and buy drinks with friends and just, you know, send them the money. But I was just frustrated and angry and just also just exhausted, exhausted of just being the person, you know. And then it was times when I needed money and I couldn't call home. I just had to, like, go without. And that was frustrating because, you know, they didn't understand my circumstance and like, my situation.
Farai Chideya [00:50:15] Yeah. So as we get closer to wrapping up, let me ask you, it sounds like your mother really championed you writing this. Were you surprised by that? And has she had a chance to read it and respond to you?
Jenisha Watts [00:50:28] I wasn't surprised because one thing about Trina is, is that I know she loves me. She she may not have been able to show up and and like in a way that a mother like story typically would be, but she would do anything for my kids. She'd do anything. And I think that when she read it, because she got the magazine and she called me and she was just crying. I think it just hit her in different ways. You know, she was just crying and she just kept apologizing. She just kept saying, I'm sorry. She was like, but look at look at this. Look, look. Of all I put you through and look where God has brought you is what she kept saying. And she just kept she was just like, I'm so sorry. I didn't know this. She's you know, she was always thinking she was just being selfish, but she cried. But she's also just so grateful and she's just so happy and just so proud of me. And she's always been like that her whole life. Like she's always been like that.
Farai Chideya [00:51:27] And I understand that you're a mother now.
Jenisha Watts [00:51:30] Yeah.
Farai Chideya [00:51:30] Yeah. So what does it feel like with everything? With all the paths that you've walked and all the pain of those parts and all of the success of those paths? What does it feel like to be a mother and what do you want from the experience of being a mother?
Jenisha Watts [00:51:45] I was thinking about this this morning with my son because, you know, my son calls me… He says, Mama. Mm hmm. And I think when I hear him say that now, it… I'm happy. I'm relieved. I'm grateful. But also it makes me sad because I think about how I took that away from Trina. And, you know, Trina has told us to call her mom, but I just realized, like, when I hear him say it, I just realize how its is such an honor, is such a beautiful thing. You know, it's such an intimate thing for him to say, Mama, that, you know, he doesn't say Jenisha, he says, Mama, Yeah. And it just means so much to me. But now, when I hear him say it, it kind of makes me sad because I'm like, Well, I didn't I don't know how that feels to call Trina mama. Like, even if I try to call her mom now, it just would feel weird. And my cousin always says, like, well, can you just call it Miss Watts? But it feels weird. I just call her Trina. But something about when I hear him say, Mama, it just does something to my insides. It just makes me pause for a minute and I'm just like, Wow, I'm really someone's mom. I'm someone's mama, you know? And I can tell that, you know, I know he loves me, I mean he hugs me and like, you know, he lights up when he walks in a room. But I'm just like, Wow. Like, I am someone's mama.
Farai Chideya [00:53:03] Yeah. And what do you want folks who read this article, this cover story to walk away with? You know, it's very powerful, very moving. I hope it gets the widest audience possible.
Jenisha Watts [00:53:14] Thank you.
Farai Chideya [00:53:14] What kinds of things are you hearing from people who've read it, who didn't know you and don't know you? And also, what do you want for them?
Jenisha Watts [00:53:22] Honestly, I… I'm still just so surprised at how moved people are by this article. But I'm also grateful, grateful that people can relate to the story and fill it in some kind of way. I think the thing is that I want people to get from the essay is mostly that stories like mine are important. People like Trina deserve to be in Atlantic and they deserve to be on these type of platforms. People with these types of complexities and these types of backgrounds. And it's so cliche, but we matter. We have a voice. I think that's what I want people to see. And also too is that the humanness of everyone. So, yes, my grandmother's, she had moments in a story which she maybe didn't show up, but she's still a human and she still has interior and you know, she's still loved. And I just want people to understand that and also understand to how one man can try to ruin a generation and how when you speak up, speak words into it, you can kind of get in front of it.
Farai Chideya [00:54:36] Well, Jenisha Watts senior editor at The Atlantic, thank you for sharing your story with us today.
Jenisha Watts [00:54:42] Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Karen Grigsby Bates [00:54:46] And thanks to Our Body Politic host Farai Chideya for that conversation. Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcasts, we'd also like to invite you to sign up for our newsletter, where we share additional insights and resources from the OBP community. Check us out on Instagram and X @OurBodyPolitic and click the link in our bio.
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. I'm today’s host Karen Grigsby Bates. Farai Chideya, Nina Spensley and Shanta Covington are executive producers. Emily J. Daly is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booking producer. Andrea Asuaje, Ann Marie Awad, Natyna Bean, Morgan Givens, Emily Ho and Monica Morales Garcia are our producers. Nicole Pasulka is our fact checker. Our associate producer is David Escobar. Our technical director is Mike Garth.
This program is produced with support from the Luce Foundation, Open Society Foundation, Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, The Pop Culture Collaborative, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.