This week on the show we’re presenting a midterms special where we highlight different races across the nation. Farai interviews Cheri Beasley, former Chief Justice of North Carolina’s Supreme Court on her race to replace retiring Republican senator Richard Burr. We hear from Tene Darby, chairperson of the Lancaster City Democratic Committee in Pennsylvania, on the midterm races happening in her state. Then, Farai speaks with Democratic state representative Dr. Yadira Caraveo on what she hopes to bring to Colorado state’s newly created 8th Congressional district. Farai is then joined by Astead Herndon, national political journalist and New York Times podcast host about how voters’ concerns are dictating their political affiliations and deepening polarization and division.
Farai Chideya:
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Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic, I'm Farai Chideya. We're in the home stretch to election day. The races for control of the U.S. Senate are tight in several states, including in North Carolina. Former Chief Justice of the State Supreme Court, Cheri Beasley is running to replace retiring Republican Senator Richard Burr. Currently, there are no Black women serving in the U.S. Senate and if elected, Beasley will be only the third Black woman to become a U.S. senator.
Farai Chideya:
In the spring, several TV stations pulled an ad from the National Republican Senatorial Committee, attacking Beasley for three majority opinions that she wrote while on the Supreme Court, her opponent, Congressman Ted Budd, echoed the attack during the only Senate debate between the two. But the claims about Beasley's judicial record lack context, cherry picking examples from her over 20 years in the North Carolina judiciary. We asked Congressman Budd to join us on the show, but we didn't hear back from him. Polls show Budd leading in a close race, a Trump-backed candidate, Budd co-sponsored legislation in September, imposing a 15 week abortion ban nationwide. But he's also said he thinks states should decide.
Cheri, welcome to the show.
Cheri Beasley:
Thank you, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
So approximately a third of current U.S. senators are lawyers. How do you think that your experience on the North Carolina Supreme Court would prepare you for the Senate?
Cheri Beasley:
Well, I've served as a judge for over two decades, and I have worked hard to respect the rule of law and to uphold the constitution. And I've been making decisions about everyday people's lives for a long time. And what I know is that Washington has failed a lot of families here in North Carolina, and we need real change. So many folks are really having a hard time here, about a third of the folks who live here earn less than $15 an hour, and people are concerned about rising costs. So many folks that work in two or three jobs to take care of their families, the climate crisis is real, and folks are also concerned about our constitutional rights being in jeopardy and so much more.
Farai Chideya:
Now, part of your career, a large part of your career, you have said is in pursuit of justice and fairness. A lot of different people, including people who might be opposed to how you perceive justice and fairness would say that those are terms that they embrace. What do justice and fairness mean to you? In the public space.
Cheri Beasley:
What it means is that our leaders are not working against us. When folks are making decisions about whether to buy groceries or school supplies, or high price medications, that's injustice. And we need somebody who is fully prepared and equipped and committed to making legislation that's grounded in humanity that works for folks here in North Carolina.
Farai Chideya:
Crime seems to be a top issue for people of all races and political parties. And similar to what we saw during the confirmation hearing of Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, some opponents of yours have attacked your judicial record, painted you being a soft on crime. How do you explain what it is that you've set out to do in your many years as a judge, and how you bring this frame of justice and fairness into people's perception of what makes them safer?
Cheri Beasley:
I have been a judge and chief justice for over two decades. I have worked with law enforcement. I created the first human trafficking court in North Carolina, and I have held violent offenders accountable. And crime is a problem. We just had a mass shooting here in Raleigh and our community's hearts are really broken. My heart is broken. But it's time out for that. Folks want results. They want to know that the next senator's going to fight hard to reduce crime. And we certainly need to make sure that law enforcement have the resources that they need to protect themselves and communities. We also need to invest in community based violence intervention programs to stop the cycle of violence. And we need legislation to curb gun crime. There was bipartisan legislation passed with the support of our senators Burr and Tillis on gun safety and mental health for children.
Farai Chideya:
Let's pivot to a different topic, though related, which is abortion and reproductive justice. Among other things, it's been shown that when people are not allowed to terminate pregnancies with their doctors and with their partners, in some cases, the crime rate goes up. Because children who cannot be cared for sometimes don't end up doing that well. With that, in the broader context, what is going on in North Carolina around abortion and reproductive rights, and where do you stand as a candidate?
Cheri Beasley:
The real issue is who makes the decision? Is it a woman and her doctor, or is it politicians up in Washington? Congressman Budd is leading the charge, and aligned himself with the most extreme faction of his party on an absolute ban for abortion without exceptions for rape, incest, or risks for mother's health. And so that means that a woman who's been sexually assaulted will have to carry the pregnancy to term. A woman who has an ectopic pregnancy, or septic uterus, or miscarriage that her body won't release, will not be able to get the life-saving treatment that she needs, which is an abortion. And it means that women will die. And that is absolutely unacceptable. Anytime our freedoms are on the line, I'm going to be fighting for North Carolina, and I will fight to make sure that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. The majority of folks here in North Carolina, agree with the constitutional protective right as outlined in Roe, as do the majority of Americans.
Farai Chideya:
So what do you say to voters who think that they have to choose between improving the economy, and perhaps see your opponent as the best person for that, and protecting the right to abortion?
Cheri Beasley:
Well, I don't want them misled. I know that we've got to address the economy, and I also know that Congress can do that. We spend more in this country on medication than any other country in the world, and Congress can change that. We know that corporations are making 70 year record profits, and using the cover of inflation to jack up fees and prices on things that we need. Congress can fix that. We need to be bringing good paying jobs back to this country from China. We need to be focusing on our made in America economy, and fostering our manufacturing and tech sectors. And we've got great talented folks right here in North Carolina who can perform those jobs. And Congressman Budd has voted against bringing those jobs back here from on the CHIPS Act. So the person who is committed to working on the economy, is Cheri Beasley.
Farai Chideya:
Why then do many voters perceive Republican candidates as being stronger on the economy? And are you having to fight against a more generalized perception of what Democrats and Republicans are bringing to the table for people who are worried about cost and are worried about earnings?
Cheri Beasley:
You know what I know in my race is that Ted Budd and his national Republican allies, have spent millions and millions of dollars to distort my judicial record and to misinformed the public, which is such a travesty. It's unfair to voters. People look to candidates to provide information about the work that they've done and the issues. And Ted Butt and his allies have done the opposite of that. Congressman Budd needs to speak more on his record, and the reality is when people show you who they are, you better believe him. He doesn't speak for North Carolina, it's time for change. And I'm really excited about the energy that we're seeing in this race. We are working hard all across the state to garner support in every corner. We have 100 counties, I've been to all of them. And we've been working really hard, not taking one vote for granted, really listening to folks and talking about the issues that they care a whole lot about.
Farai Chideya:
What's the most surprising conversation you've had on the campaign trail?
Cheri Beasley:
I won't say surprising, because I've been a statewide elected official for over a decade. And here in North Carolina, judges run. So this is my sixth election, but it is jolting to hear so many folks who are just really struggling. There was a woman in Lincoln County, which is a smaller rural county towards the western part of the state, who told me a few weeks ago that her brother was recently diagnosed with leukemia, and his first medication would be $6,000. And it's just not going to happen for that family. And Congress really must act. But I'm having these conversations with folks all the time who cannot afford their healthcare, who cannot afford their medicine. It's great that Congress passed legislation to allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices down for seniors, and to cap insulin at $35 for seniors. But a lot of folks need help with their prescription drugs. We have over a million diabetics here in North Carolina.
Farai Chideya:
And as we wrap up here, you recently picked up an endorsement from former President Barack Obama. Give me a sense, just being frank here, in such a polarized nation, how important are endorsements like his? Because some people will say, Well, I don't really want someone who's endorsed by the former president. What are endorsements giving or not giving to you and how do you embrace this gift?
Cheri Beasley:
Well, I am very thankful for President Barack Obama's endorsement. He is well respected and he was a good leader and I appreciate the fact that he still cares deeply about this country and that he would offer his endorsement to me.
Cheri Beasley:
And frankly, Farai, I'm not sure that we're really quite as divided as folks would lead us to be. There are some leaders and there's a minority of folks who are banging loudly on the table, but most folks, regardless of race or party affiliation, have basic core values around working hard for their families and for their communities and small businesses, and wanting to see our communities thrive and grow. And the issues that are on the table really are not partisan. If you don't have clean air, clean water, it doesn't matter whether democrat, republican or independent, if it's you or someone you love who doesn't have access to affordable healthcare, or a good paying job, or affordable prescription costs, or you're being impacted by the climate crisis, these are not partisan issues. It's important for folks to know that we all must feel a sense of urgency in this election and elect folks who take this country seriously, who will fight for democracy, and who look forward to leading and not dividing us.
Farai Chideya:
The final question for you is not about politics, it's about how you keep yourself together. We ask many different people on this show, what gives them joy. What do you do or do you experience that gives you joy and refills your well? So Cheri, what about you?
Cheri Beasley:
Well, I am a woman of faith, and I am on a prayer call every morning at 6:45 AM. And honestly, over the last more than 18 months, we have met some of the most wonderful people who care a lot about the state and this country, and these people will become lifelong friends for me. So I'm thankful, it's awesome to be grounded, and to feel a sense of conviction in this fight for justice and for democracy, for North Carolina and for this country is truly gratifying.
Farai Chideya:
Thank you so much Cheri Beasley for joining us.
Cheri Beasley:
Thank you, Farai. Appreciate it.
Farai Chideya:
That was former Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court, Cheri Beasley on her run for the U.S. Senate.
Farai Chideya:
Coming up next, Colorado State representative Dr. Yadira Caraveo on her run for the state's newly created eighth congressional district. Plus Astead Herndon of the New York Times on how the nation's most polarizing issues have led some voters to change political parties. That's on Our Body Politic.
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. This week we're digging into midterm races across the country. We turn next to Pennsylvania to hear from Tene Darby, chairperson of the Lancaster City Democratic Committee.
Tene Darby:
I would really like to know how Oz even got to be. Because honestly, if it would've been a Democrat, Republicans would've been all over this. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I don't understand, sometimes as a party where we just let things just slide under the rug. You know what I mean? Just like Trump didn't win.
Farai Chideya:
Darby is the first Black and Latina person to hold the post of chairperson in the committee's history
Tene Darby:
As a woman and as a woman of color, where a lot of our rights and privileges and things are bound up in what we do or don't do. And this is a moment where our voice truly has power in coming out to cast that vote. I mean, it speaks volumes. It speaks more than any protest could do.
Farai Chideya:
While Darby is a prominent Democrat in Lancaster, she's also married to a staunch Republican.
Tene Darby:
Me and my husband don't see eye to eye politically, but he does seem to favor Fetterman in being that he knows him from Pittsburgh and what he did and becoming the mayor of Braddock and things like that. And I've seen the commercials about the taxes and all these other things, but obviously the messages are getting misconstrued. Also, I don't believe in slandering another candidate. I feel like I should be able to present our candidate, which is Shapiro, and give all the positives about him without having to state why you know should vote for him and not Mastriano, you know what I mean? His accolade should speak enough for themselves, for me to be able to get someone out to vote for him, than for me to have to diminish the other candidate in order to make mine's look better.
Farai Chideya:
And Darby has a message for women of color this election season.
Tene Darby:
It is important for women of color to come out to vote period. You know what I mean? Because so many times we're silenced in any other areas in our lives and this is an area where they can't silence us. So I think it's important to speak out for the issues that they you believe in. And if you believe in the right for someone to choose, it is then monumental that you come out to vote. I don't believe I should tell anyone what they should have to do with themselves. So I think that's why this election is very important, because it's going to set us back if we don't do the right thing and get out to vote.
Farai Chideya:
That was chairperson, Tene Darby, on Pennsylvania's midterm races who was interviewed by reporter Marquis Lupton.
Farai Chideya:
In the federal redistricting process that takes place every decade, Colorado is one of only six states to gain congressional seats. The newly created eighth congressional district is considered a toss up. It's also the most diverse district in the state. Colorado State representative Dr. Yadira Caraveo is running for Congress there. And if elected, she'll be the first Latina and the first doctor to represent Colorado in Congress. Dr. Caraveo's opponent is Republican nominee state Senator Barbara Kirkmeyer. We also asked her on the show but haven't heard back. Welcome Dr. Caraveo.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Farai Chideya:
So we want to hear a little bit about your origin story. Your parents immigrated to the U.S. from Mexico, and you grew up in a neighborhood that's now part of this new district that you hope to represent. So how does how and where you grew up shape who you are and why you wanted to run and serve in Congress?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
My background and the way that I grew up completely shapes who I am, what I've done as a doctor and a legislator and would shape who I would be as a congresswoman. My parents sacrificed a lot to come to this country, and it was really with the goal of making sure that their kids had a better future than they did growing up. Ever since I was born, their focus was really on education and making sure that we were going to go to college, and I really took that seriously.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
I had decided at the age of three that I wanted to be a doctor, and I never really varied from that path. I really thought that I was going to be giving back by being a doctor. And then later on deciding that I was going to focus on pediatrics in particular. A lot of that had to do with the focus on advocacy the pediatrics has. I went to the University of New Mexico because of their focus on advocacy. They were also a unionized residency program, and so we focused a lot on what the workers and trainees and what the hospital needed in terms of resources to take care of the community. And then when I came back to Colorado, I purposely joined a practice that was going to be seeing a majority of patients on Medicaid, and a lot of kids who had grown up just like myself.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, I mean I happen to have a lot of friends and family members including my sister who are doctors, doing everything from research to neonatology, and all of them have things that they love and things that they wish medicine did better. So with your career, what have you loved about following your dream, and what do you wish the American medical system did better?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
I've loved the actual taking care of patients, seeing kids in particular grow up, being able to help families get what they need in terms of taking care of their kids. And with the focus on pediatrics being so much on preventative care and really focusing on what children need in every single aspect of their life, that has also brought a lot of frustrations and that's exactly what led me to run for office initially.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
I was having more conversations about insurance and what they would cover, the price of prescription drugs, how much it took for families to put food on the table in a roof over their kids' heads. I was talking to families about homelessness and so many things that were broken with the educational system amongst so many other things, that it was really getting frustrating as a doctor to not be able to fix so much of the things that were affecting their health. And so that was the reason that I decided to run for the state legislature.
Farai Chideya:
So what have you brought from having a medical career? Maybe not about medicine per se, but just insights into people into what you have done as a member of the state legislature and what you hope to do as a congressperson?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
I was the only doctor in the state legislature, and so that came with a lot of responsibility, but a lot of insights about what families really go through every single day. Half of the time that I would be in clinic was not just talking about the medical aspects of taking care of a kid, but everything that had to do with community, their families, and their ability to take care of people. And so I came with a lot of stories, real stories from families and from community about how difficult it was for them to make ends meet and to really get ahead in this world.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
And also, my training really led to my ability to negotiate and to advocate for people. As a doctor, you have very difficult conversations every single day, often about the most intimate details of people's lives, and that gives you a certain ability to communicate and to really listen to people. So that's definitely something that I brought to the legislature, the ability to listen to all sides, to really try to bring people together just like you do when you're helping them make medical decisions based on all the information that you get.
Farai Chideya:
I want to dig into some questions of drug law because that's been something that the whole country is dealing with in different ways now. Colorado is a state where marijuana is legal, and it makes hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue a year from legal recreational marijuana. Last year you sponsored a bill that became law aimed at preventing teens from getting access to super potent cannabis products. How do you think about legal cannabis?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
I certainly am a proponent of legalization, and what I had seen as a pediatrician was a lot of the risks in particular for young people around high potency products. We really looked at updating the regulation after almost 10 years of legalization in Colorado. And one thing that needs to be taken into account as we look into legalization federally and across many states, is making sure that while we are making this product available legally, that we're really looking at what the effects are going to be, particularly on young people.
Farai Chideya:
And going through other drugs and regulations. Ketamine, it's increasingly being used to treat treatment resistant depression, but in some instances, it's also been used by first responders at the insistence of police officers. That was the case of Elijah McClain, who died after being forcibly detained by Aurora, Colorado police officers, and injected with too large a dose of ketamine for his weight. His autopsy report was recently amended to Ketamine administration following forcible restraint. You co-sponsored a bill about that. So tell us what you were trying to get at.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
What we were seeing in Colorado was the use in the field by paramedics and EMTs, and not by doctors in a controlled setting the way that I had always trained using ketamine when we used it for sedations. And so what we really tried to ensure there is that there is proper medical oversight that we are giving paramedics in the field time to really properly calculate weight, because in those really shifting situations, what happened with Elijah McClain is that the dose given was too high for his weight, it was estimated incorrectly, and that we were placing limits around it so that we are making sure that it's a medical decision and not one that is based solely on the need to control a shifting situation on the field.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. I want to get into one more health question. You co-sponsored a measure to update Colorado's sex education law. Colorado is a state where lawmakers also took action to protect the right to abortion. What's the state of reproductive justice in Colorado? And if you become a Congressperson, what do you intend to do On a national level?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
What we've been able to do in Colorado is what we really need to do nationwide around protecting the ability for people to understand what their reproductive issues are, and then make those decisions amongst themselves, their family members, and with a doctor. And we've been lucky enough to have a trifecta here in Colorado for the time that I have served, and so we've been able to really pass legislation that gives people the information that they need about their health, lets them make that decision about whether they want an abortion or not, and whether they want contraception or not. In Congress, I would fight to give people that same information and those same resources to make their own decisions, to make sure that the ability for somebody to decide on their reproductive future is based solely on their opinion and their medical advice, and not something that is subject to politics.
Farai Chideya:
Zooming out a little bit into the people behind the politics, there's a higher percentage of Latino voters in the eighth congressional district than in any other district in the state. So there's been a lot of conversation about who Latinos are, who they aren't, how it differs by different parts of the country. As you think about representing the Latino voters in the eighth congressional district, who are your potential constituents?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
Just like across the country, they are not a monolith. We're diverse, not just in terms of the number of Latinos in this district, but in the backgrounds of those Latinos. But what is absolutely essential is that we have somebody that really understands those distinctions, that understands the community, and I think that I am best suited between myself and my opponent to really understand those issues. Having grown up in this community, coming from an immigrant background, I think what is really essential is having somebody that understands those distinctions and that in my four years in the legislature, I've really fought for this community and tried to advance all of the things that made it possible for me to live my American dream.
Farai Chideya:
We've had on a number of people who study politics, including Geraldo Cadava and academic, and many people who are pollsters or journalists, and obviously as we've talked about, Latino voters are different in different parts of the country, but what seems to be pretty common right now in a lot of parts of the country, is a fatigue with being viewed as only democratic voters. And whether or not people end up voting for the Democratic candidate, a lot of people seem not to want to be put in a box. How are you trying to recruit Latino voters in your district without putting them in a box like you have to vote for me because I'm the democratic candidate.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
Exactly. It's not being taken for granted. I felt that myself as a Latina, that every two to four years when there's an election, that's when there's reach out to the Latino community and then there's no real attempt to make real relationships and establish roots in between elections. And so that's what I'm really striving to change. We have focused on the community from the moment that I announced my candidacy. We have a Latino outreach director whose entire job is to make sure that we are listening to the Latino community. And that is certainly something that I would continue as a congressperson, in particular, in the Northeastern part of the district, is really focused on establishing relationships on listening to Latinos throughout my term and making sure that they're not being put in a box where we just reach out to them every election cycle.
Farai Chideya:
Polls are showing a pretty tight race between you and your opponent, and as you enter the home stretch at a time when a lot of people are worried about issues including crime, the cost of gas, the cost of food, the cost of housing, what themes are you hitting on?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
It's exactly those things that the voters are focused on. Talking to them about my history and the legislature, and why I have focused on working family issues because I come from a working family. When my dad was able to, as a construction worker, put food on the table for four kids and put four of us through college. In the legislature, I've really made sure to work for those same people to make sure that we're lowering taxes for working families, that were lowering their healthcare costs, especially around prescription drugs that we're focusing on what they need to take care of their kids. We're focusing on their education and so many of the different things that frustrated me taking care of them as a pediatrician, that was the whole reason that I left my clinic to begin with. And it's having those conversations one on one with voters, having them at events, making sure that all of our messaging around ads and mailer's focuses on that. To tell them that I understand them, I would be their most effective voice in Congress, and I think that that is a message that's going to be effective in the end.
Farai Chideya:
So we always like asking people about joy. Let's say that you become a congressperson, and then you decide to have some wonderful third phase of life as a backup singer for a local band or whatever. So what brings you joy now and what might be down the road, your fantasy thing?
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
Oh, you know what still brings me joy, and although I get to see them less often nowadays, is seeing kids. That's the reason that I became a pediatrician. So seeing them at events and seeing how happy they always are and how hopeful they always are is still something that really lifts my spirit. I guess in terms of a third career, although I don't know how likely that is brewing, Craft brewing is huge in Colorado.
Farai Chideya:
Oh wow.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
And my alma mater, Regis actually has a brewing program now. I'm very into craft beer and that's a very Colorado thing. But I guess if I could do it all over again, that's something that I would look into doing.
Farai Chideya:
Wow. I love it. Hey, you never know.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
You never know.
Farai Chideya:
It's wonderful to hear what brings you joy. And we're grateful that you spent some time with us at Our Body Politic. Thank you, Dr. Caraveo.
Dr. Yadira Caraveo:
Thank you so much.
Farai Chideya:
That was Colorado State representative, Dr. Yadira Caraveo, on her run for the State's newly created eighth congressional district.
As part of our midterms coverage, we partnered with URL Media to answer your questions about politics, government, and participation. We asked two of our producers to share what URL found out with you. Here's our associate producer, Natyna Bean.
Natyna Bean:
A listener asked, "What are communities and elected officials of color doing to combat manmade climate change? And are BIPOC communities engage with climate change as a political issue?" The answer is yes, and a lot.
According to two Yale University surveys from 2019, Latinx and Black Americans are more likely to be concerned about the effects of climate change than White Americans. And both groups are more likely to campaign to convince elected officials to take action, which may be because communities of color are more vulnerable to the health consequences of climate change.
Natyna Bean:
And prominent BIPOC elected officials, especially local officials, are pushing for action. Mayor Brandon Scott of Baltimore Set targets for the city to be carbon neutral by 2045. Atlanta's Mayor Andre Dickens, pledge the city will use 100% renewable energy by 2035. And in 2021, the EPA chose Newark, New Jersey, Mayor Ras Baraka, to be a member of the local government advisory committee, which shapes localized environmental policy at the national level.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks Natyna. And now our politics producer, Anoa Changa.
Anoa Changa:
A listener asks, "Is information about ballot initiatives getting lost in the election cycle as voters consider candidates?" Well, ballot initiatives are former direct democracy where citizens propose laws then get public support to put them on the ballot for everyone to vote on. 24 states in Washington D.C. allow citizen ballot initiatives. The most common initiatives this election cycle involve voting in abortion rights.
Anoa Changa:
In Michigan, over 750,000 eligible voters signed on to support an initiative backing reproductive freedom. This is more than in any other in the state's history. If passed, Michigan's reproductive freedom ballot initiative would protect an individual's right to make decisions related to their reproductive care, including but not limited to abortion, prenatal, and infertility care. Other initiatives include criminal punishment, cannabis, and the bowel initiative process itself. While resources vary by state, ballot initiatives are drawing massive investments to convince voters to decide one way or the other, given the fundraising specifically for or against ballot initiatives in several states, they're certainly not being left out of the midterm election consideration.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks Anoa. And thank you to the team at URL Media for this reporting and to you, our listeners for sending us your questions. We'd love hearing from you.
Coming up next, Astead Herndon gets into how voter concerns can affect the outcomes of the midterm elections. You're listening to Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic, I'm Farai Chideya. My next guest has become an expert at producing political news with lots of cultural relevance and a focus on the big picture. Astead Herndon is a national political reporter and the host of The Run Up, a podcast from the New York Times. Last year he made the Forbes 30 under 30 list and he's been playing a key role in shaping how the Times covers race and identity. Before that, he was a Washington based political reporter and a city hall reporter for the Boston Globe. Welcome to Our Body Politic Astead.
Astead Herndon:
Thank you for having me. How are you?
Farai Chideya:
I'm doing great. Let's start out by listening to a bit of your interview with Stacy Abrams, the second time around candidate for governor of Georgia, and currently trailing in the polls against Governor Brian Kemp. You asked her about whether the campaign was struggling to reach Black male voters.
Stacy Abrams:
We have not struggled. Your story was wrong. And I'm going to say that very directly because in 2018 I had the very same conversations.
Farai Chideya:
The interview was a great get and it's a great listen, but how does it feel to be told you're outright wrong?
Astead Herndon:
I honestly feel pretty comfortable with it. I mean, I think that is the point of asking questions, is to give politicians to give clear, true answers. And I prefer honest politicians rather than spinning politicians. So I appreciate one that is clear as she is, and I think that interview makes clear that she believes in that strategy to bring her over the top, and she rejects the analysis that it requires other groups to win and get over. And so I mean, to me that's the point of doing the work, is to have that become clear. I'm comfortable enough in our reporting and journalism, she could drag us. I thought it was great. Yeah, I messed up Star Wars and Star Trek, drag me for it. I'm fine.
Farai Chideya:
That's funny. No, I mean I actually feel like that was a critical conversation. My friends who are also politics watchers have been talking a lot about the still small but rising numbers of Black men who are no longer voting for Democrats or even leaning MAGA. So what do you chalk that up to?
Astead Herndon:
Yeah, I mean, this was a structural thing that was happening before this race in Georgia. I mean, I remember doing a story right before the 2020 election from Panhandle, Florida about the rise in GOP targeting Black men. And some of this is just the erosion the Democrats have seen on the margins with minority communities. There is an overriding sense when you talk to these folks that they feel like the party has not gotten a good enough return of investment for their votes. And so, some of that has been drifting off into not voting, which is how we have typically seen it manifest itself, right?
Astead Herndon:
In 2016, Black men not voting in Milwaukee made a huge difference in that state. And that's not voting in big numbers. I like to calibrate it so it doesn't seem like these people are uniquely different, but not coming out in the same numbers as they came out for Barack Obama made a huge difference. And so now we're seeing that kind of transition, where the GOP is trying to pick some of that off and trying to say, not just don't vote, but stick it to them by voting for us. And for some people, that message works. The issue that Democrats have is they need all of the above. They can't afford to lose on those margins, even if it's a smaller percentage. The difference between winning 85% of Black people and 75% of Black people matters a ton.
Farai Chideya:
So how much do you see these midterms, overall, not just on this question, as a pregame for 2024. And if so, in what ways?
Astead Herndon:
Oh, it's all absolutely a pregame. And I think that is usually true for midterm elections, particularly when you have a new president. But I think it's super true in this midterm elections, one because we have the unique situation where the former president is still a possible contender for the next presidency, and is the leading figure of his party. Typically, if a president were to lose for reelection, the party would take that as a sign to get rid of him, that they were a political loser, they recalibrate. That's what we have typically seen in those type of instances. That's the conventional political wisdom. What we know is Republicans have done the exact opposite, right? The harden Trump base has gotten more hardened.
Astead Herndon:
And so that creates a unique sense for me in this midterms, where I think you have the possibility of a rematch looming over all of this. And you have the political forces of the former president still driving the Republican party. And so I think if you see Democrats have a tough night, that's going to matter for Joe Biden and whether people want him to run in 2024. If you see Republicans have a disappointing night, it's going to be people looking to say, maybe those Trump candidates didn't serve them well. But if the night goes how we think it's going to, and Republicans at least pick off enough seats to really chalk this year up as an improvement, it's going to be very hard for them to get rid of Donald Trump and his movement. And that sets up a 2024 that is re-litigating his view of democracy. And I think that is animating a lot of stuff right now.
Farai Chideya:
You've been reporting on politics for years now. Sometimes the intersections of race and politics, but much broader. And a couple of articles come to mind. There was a 2019 one titled, How Trump's Brand of Grievance Politics Roiled a Pennsylvania Campaign. And then there's another one that's frankly my favorite article that you've written about Trump Stock called Nothing Less Than a Civil War. Now that's a quote from an attendee at Trump Stock. And in the lead up to the 2016 race, I reported for 538 on voters and demographics. So what did you learn from covering Trump Stock? And to a certain extent, did that reporting future cast the level of political anger today?
Astead Herndon:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, remember this was part of a, I wanted to do a set of stories in 2019 about White identity politics, and about how that was animating Republican party. And so that was actually a set, I went to Pennsylvania, I went to Trump Stock, I went to St. Cloud, Minnesota to do a story out of there about nativism, and I wanted to talk to Republican Trump voters about Whiteness, and about how they viewed that and preservation of culture as tied to racial identity.
Astead Herndon:
And so Trump Stock was born out of me being a part of these really Trumpy Facebook groups, and really seeing these little grassroots local events that would feature candidates that you would think would never have a home in straight up establishment politics, open Nazi, open use of the N-word, open spiritual birthers curatorial. And at the same time, they're speaking alongside the state Republican party chair, alongside a member of Congress and Paul Gosar.
Astead Herndon:
And so I was saying, particularly in a key part of Arizona, a swing state that's changing. I'm going to go out there and I want to see how they're talking about this stuff. That led to, I think, a really explicit understanding of just how serious Trump supporters are. I think there's this idea sometimes in political journalism that take them figuratively and not literally. And when a guy told me there that he was going to, he said, "If Trump loses, I think there will be violence." And he was at the 6th, he was just telling me what he planned to do-
Farai Chideya:
Interesting.
Astead Herndon:
And those type of people ended up going to the Capitol. And so I think that those for me were the type of stories that made clear that this wasn't the top down thing. This wasn't Donald Trump dictating the worldview. This was a long outgrowth of people who have not seen democracy working for them, and do not see it as core to the country, do not see majority rule as a thing they have to believe in when they don't like the majority. And so now you have a Kari Lake in Arizona, now you have people who are actually embracing, we did the episode on this, embracing explicit anti-democracy language. I think if you go to those things, you could see it coming.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, I mean I feel the same way too. And I felt a certain frustration that journalism didn't get on the bus sooner in understanding that this wasn't a metaphor, it was a reality. I also went to the Stop the Steal rally and explicitly left before January 6th as we know it, because I knew it was going to get violent. And it was not a place that I wanted to be at that time. But I remember talking to a young Black man from Massachusetts, I think he was 25, he was definitely in his mid-20s, and he's like, "I don't trust the media. I'm a Trump voter." There's been some prominent figures like Enrique Tarrio, who are White nationalists. I mean, Kanye has gone off on his own journey and he has many different issues including apparent mental health issues. But to what degree, to me, to wrap this up, I really feel like some Black people are really tired of being treated as the pity vote. Like, "Oh, I'm so sorry that you're Black and I'm woke and we're the pity vote." And there's a certain kind of energy and the anger that is going with the MAGA vote, that I think even some Black and Brown people are attracted to, versus being pitied.
Astead Herndon:
Absolutely. I think that there's a lot of things happening here that aren't strictly about race. I think you see people embracing a misogynistic culture, a view of masculinity that's huge, that crosses racial demographics. I think you have people embracing a backlash to Me Too that fuels some of that stuff. I don't want to say it's strictly about Whiteness, and so it doesn't surprise me that you see people who are even not White who join some of these movements, because I think we've seen the idea that those intersections matter and those can all play at once. I mean, we've seen that broadly. But I definitely agree with the idea that media, and political reporting specifically, has treated identity and culture as a side entree to these serious kitchen table issues. And when you do that, you miss how those things are really animating so much of people's political identity and polarization. And it's sometimes just a lack of imagination.
Astead Herndon:
When I was going to these places, I, as a Black person who works at the New York Times can ask them about race, and they would talk to me. And to me, it feels like it was just our failure to ask, that our failure of imagination, our lack of belief, that those things were actually driving factors that have caused us to really have it exist in such a blind spot.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Our Body Politic. I'm talking to a Astead Herndon, national political reporter and host of The Run Up, a podcast from the New York Times.
So going back to your podcast, The Run Up, You explore the transformation of American evangelicalism, that's a quote in a recent episode. I also covered White evangelicals in the 2016 election, particularly a couple that really despised Donald Trump until they voted for him. And I feel like it was a lot of peer pressure, social cohesion, their church was voting for Trump, and so they got on the bus, and anti-abortion sentiment was a big part of it. But how do you understand the evangelical movement and its positioning in politics? And give us a little context on what you talked about.
Astead Herndon:
Yeah, I really loved that episode, because I think it really speaks to a political movement in this country that's misunderstood. And this comes partly from my personal background. My father's a pastor. I have known Christianity and changes of evangelicalism closely. And I think that one of the things I'll never forget about the Trump election, is how it caused such a rupture in places like my father's church, a Black church that has nobody voting for Trump, but has viewed themselves in alignment with White evangelicals in the faith sense. And that really collapsed. That really collapsed. And that was always something that really stuck out to me, was that church remains a really segregated space in the country, and a really political space in the country. And so I think that writing a highlight to what is driving these people's motivations was core. And when we had that episode, I think it became clear that while Roe was the initial transaction for evangelicals, maybe they got on board because they wanted to seat half the Supreme Court.
Astead Herndon:
That is now something that, one, has been accomplished. But two, I think it's not the fullness of how some of these people were coming to Trump. They were thinking that it was dictated by the pulpit that they were instructing these people, but they were watching Fox too. They were taking in a whole lot of online information. They were pushing the church to go further. And that grassroot sentiment has allowed evangelicals, to really align with Trumpism in a new way. And the guardrails of the church have gone along with it. We talked to Dr. Al Moler, the head of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And I think in that interview he makes really clear, that no matter how he feels about Trump as an individual or even about democracy and the January 6th stuff, if you are moving the country away from abortion and away from queer LGBT rights, he's fine with it. And that was what mattered most to him. And so again, I think it was about getting that level of clarity. And I think that really gets to the heart of polarization and division right now.
Farai Chideya:
You interviewed Kellyanne Conway for your episode called The Autopsy, which starts with the famous report from March, 2013 that the GOP needed to reach marginalized voters in order to survive. And then of course, four years later, Trump took office. So here's what Conway said about the treatment of Trump supporters.
Kellyanne Conway:
We never deeply examine, that which we deeply disdain.
Farai Chideya:
Do you think she's right here?
Astead Herndon:
Oh yeah, I think she's right. And I think that the fullness of what she was saying in that conversation, I think really informed my feeling there. We started talking to her because of the autopsy that Republicans put together in 2012, based off the premise that the country was moving in this racial cultural direction that meant Democrats were going to win. There was this simplistic understanding of race, a simplistic understanding of identity, class, and the differences between how the elite political class was thinking about race, and the reality for America's demographic racial changes on the ground. And what she was saying, I think in that quote, is they fail to do the examinations necessary, the political class, to really be ready for those changes.
Astead Herndon:
And I think that's informed by her view as upholster. I think that's informed by what Trump was able to seize on. And I think that's informed by the fact that they were successful. You have to say, that no matter how you feel about Kellyanne Conway, they seized power at a time that was a critical intersection of America, and they did so under the understanding that the Democratic establishment and the Republican establishment were incorrect. They made a bet that worked.
Astead Herndon:
And so what I was trying to do is ask them how they knew that, how they got to that understanding before the folks around them did. And I think her answer is icky, but correct, that they know those people and they knew the cultural, racist backlash to Obama that the establishment was underwriting. They understood the economic backlash to the 2010 in recession, that the establishment was underrated. And they underrated the immigration backlash that the growth of Latino voters was bringing on the grassroots and they seized on that. And however many isms that includes, I think that's worth making clear, because I think it causes folks to have to gut check why they were so wrong in such a critical moment.
Farai Chideya:
And as we wrap up speaking about Latino voters, here's a clip from Fox News of representative Mayra Flores from South Texas. The first Mexican born congresswoman.
Mayra Flores:
The Democrat Party walked away from the Hispanic community to cater to the far left that is anti-God, anti-family and that is just not who we are here in South Texas. We're all about God and family and hard work, and they walked away from that.
Farai Chideya:
And you've talked about some of these conservative Latino politicians like Monica de Cruz, and there's people like Jennifer-Ruth Green who's a Black U.S. Air Force reservist trying to flip Indiana's first congressional district. What should we be looking at in terms of trends there for the midterms?
Astead Herndon:
I think we have to first acknowledge that political understanding of this population is at a base level that is inadequate, that has not respected the diversity of that Latino voter population of where folks come from and their motivations, we're just doing the necessary work reporting wise and polling wise to even start to scratch that surface.
Astead Herndon:
And then, after we understand that, I think we can say that Republicans, particularly after 2020 when in key states we saw Latino voters stripped away from Democrats, have invested in capitalizing on that backlash even further. They have given MAGA-ism a different face, and found that they don't have to change their anti-immigration message. They don't have to change their message on racial justice and protest, because that has our audience there. And so they're trying to seize both on the margins of Black communities, while they are growing in the biggest voting electorate that is to come, which is that Latino voter population. And so they're trying to get both sides at once in the place where Democrats have to match them. Most Latino voters vote for Democrats, and it's up to Democrats to really make that pitch in key places, to make sure they're not drifting further and further away
Farai Chideya:
Astead, it was great talking to you. Look forward to more of your podcast.
Astead Herndon:
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Farai Chideya:
That was Astead Herndon, national political reporter and host of The Run Up, a podcast from the New York Times.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I’m host and executive producer, Farai Chideya. Jonathan Blakely is our executive producer. Nina Spensley is also executive producer.
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Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Lauren Schild and engineered by Archie Moore.
Farai Chideya:
And our thanks again to URL Media, for their reporting on our audience's questions.
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