Our Body Politic

Pandemic Woes and How Black Women Helped Build the Biden Administration

Episode Summary

Three years after the first lockdowns in the US, we look at how public health has changed and how we have changed with it. Plus a new book, “Black Women Will Save the World: An Anthem,” explores black women’s contributions to the Biden administration.

Episode Transcription

Farai Chideya

Hi, folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you haven't yet, remember to follow this podcast on your podcast tour of choice like Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And if you have time, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We're here for you, with you, and because of you. So keep letting us know what's on your mind. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting the show if you are able. You can find out more at Our Body Politic.com/donate. Thanks for listening. 

This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. For many of us, daily life in the United States came to a grinding halt in March 2020 as the novel coronavirus rapidly spread across the country. A 2021 NIH report revealed the disease was likely in the U.S. in December of 2019, several weeks earlier than previously believed. More than 1 million people in the United States have died from the virus, and many others are grappling with post-COVID-19 symptoms. During his 2023 State of the Union address, President Biden signaled a shift in the U.S. approach to the virus. 

Joe Biden

While the virus is not gone, thanks to the resilience of the American people and the ingenuity of medicine, we broken the COVID grip on us. 

Farai Chideya

It's clear that the politics of COVID 19 will be impacting people at home and abroad for years to come. Now, three years after the first shut downs, medical epidemiologist and friend of the show, Dr. Kavita Trivedi, is back with us to reflect on the pandemic. She's the founder and principal at Trivedi Consultants, an innovative health care consulting firm providing infection control and antimicrobial stewardship. Dr. Trivedi also serves as the communicable disease controller for Alameda County in Northern California. Welcome back to the show, Dr. Trivedi. 

Dr Trivedi

Hi, Farai. Nice to be back. 

Farai Chideya

Yeah, it's great to have you. We talk to you so much during the height of the pandemic. First of all, is this a pandemic still? 

Dr Trivedi

We're definitely still reeling from the effects of the pandemic. And I think now is that long term recovery stage, kind of the stage when you're discharged from the hospital and you're starting rehab and you're going back home and you're starting to try to figure out how to get back into life. That is where I would say we are at now. We're trying to figure out how to get back into the world. And with this different lens that we now have of having been through this pandemic. 

Farai Chideya

Yeah. And so at the end of January, the Biden administration announced it was going to be lifting the COVID 19 emergency That happens as of May 11th, 2023. But what does this mean for people who have been relying on free COVID testing and other support provided by this authorization? 

Dr Trivedi

I think that they're going to be a lot of changes that people feel. I think the biggest thing will be the accessibility of vaccines. Right. So vaccines are covered now currently under the public health emergency. And come May, that will no longer be true. So people that are certainly under insured will have difficulty getting vaccines. So we really want to encourage as many people as possible to get vaccinated If you're not yet vaccinated, especially before this public health emergency is lifted. The other thing I would say about testing is right now the private companies that are developing these tests or have these tests that are out in the world aren't really sure people are going to continue buying the tests right after the public health emergency is over. These tests do have expiration dates. I wouldn't go out and buy as many tests as you can find, but I would consider thinking about buying some tests if that's where your family has functioned well during this pandemic. You know, considering buying tests closer towards the end of the emergency because we just don't know how many will be available after it's lifted. 

Farai Chideya

I mask sometimes when I feel like I don't need to mask for myself. For relatives of mine who I wish were taking more seriously that they have health problems, but those relatives are not even masking themselves. So is that something for us to like? I do mask differently than I used to during the height of the pandemic, but a lot of people who I sort of feel like protective of don't even mask at all. I don't know. What does one do? 

Dr Trivedi

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is tough and this is kind of that exactly what I was mentioning before getting out of the hospital. We're noticing how other people are acting and we're trying to figure out what makes the most sense for us. And I do think the first thing to do is do that individual risk assessment and say, what makes the most sense for me and start from there. I think the other thing too, Farai, that I think about in those situations of people that are elderly, I don't want to be the reason that they get COVID. Yeah, right. Like you don't want to be there. So I still feel comfortable being safe the week, let's say, before I go visit them or I see them. And then I feel really comfortable regardless of what they're doing. 

Farai Chideya

Right, Right. 

Dr Trivedi

I think that it's hard and I think everybody has to look at their situation. I don't think every situation is the same. So if you're going to a party with a bunch of younger people who, you know, mostly everyone is vaccinated or has been infected recently, you may act differently in that situation than you would another party where you know that they're going to be a lot of elderly people there. So I think we just have to look at every situation, think about our individual risk, and then make a determination based on that. 

Farai Chideya 

Yeah, I mean, I was just with a person who she was passing through D.C. with her daughter on college tour, and she was still masking very much. She's a healthy woman, but she really is worried about long COVID. So how do we deal with the risk factors for long COVID, which I understand may be linked to how many times you actually end up getting COVID? Is that right? 

Dr Trivedi

Right. Yeah, I think that's a really good point about long COVID. Is this a reason that we should be extra careful? Right, Because we might get long COVID. I think that there's a lot more that we don't know about long COVID than we know about long COVID. Still, it's not just one entity. It could be many conditions. It could be you had a condition before you got COVID. And once you got COVID, it now is being more manifested. You're actually showing those signs and symptoms more. And the risk is definitely higher after you have had one infection. The one thing that definitely does affect your risk of getting long COVID and we have multiple studies to show this is vaccination reduces your risk. So, you know, for those people that are really concerned about long COVID, I think vaccination reduces your risk. And I think for other people out there like this mutual friend probably that we have. You know, we have to respect everyone's decisions about how they want to go about things. And some people look at this risk of long-covid and say, I want nothing to do with that. I don't want that to be a factor. I already have too many other things in my life that I'm worried about that I can't control. I don't want I don't want to have to deal with this. And other people are like, you know, I want to live my life based on this risk that I really don't understand that well yet. And so therefore, it's hard for me to make a really good risk assessment based on that. So so I think this is, again, those lines where people are going to have a very different response. 

Farai Chideya

I was reading a reflection that you wrote after getting COVID last year, and you noted there was a lot to celebrate in community science and resilience. And so as we reflect on this third anniversary of the start of the pandemic, and let me just say that as the pandemic was starting, I was flying from visiting my family in Zimbabwe back to the U.S. I landed in the U.S. on March 1st, and my office got shut down on the seventh. But with this third anniversary of the start of the pandemic, what do you think that public health got right and what has public health learned? 

Dr Trivedi 

Hmm, Big, big question. I think that things that we could always do better is communication. I think we've learned that across across so many different sectors. I think public health is not just about conveying science, it's about conveying information in a way that makes sense to multiple different communities. So I think that aspect of public health is something that we need to work on. And I think our workforce that we are training needs to be better informed about how to better communicate with different people from different places. And and I think that's definitely one highlight for me. And I think what did we get right? I think science overall, we were able to develop a vaccine as quickly as we were. I don't think any of us thought in March of 2020 we would have a vaccine as quickly as we did. A lot of that goes to the government putting money behind vaccine trials and the dedication of the scientific community to really focus on this one. We've never had the scientific community focused on one infectious disease. If we just took turns and went around and said, okay, this year it's going to be malaria, everybody focus on malaria. The way that we were able to understand COVID was just really quite amazing when we put all of our efforts globally into understanding one disease. Just this morning, we heard about an at home influenza task that will look at influenza A and influenza B. I mean, this is just unheard of before we have not been able to do this testing at home to see if you happen to have the disease of concern. Right. The more we understand testing, the more people feel comfortable doing tests at home and being able to make a judgment call on how I'm going to act or if I'm going to wear a mask based on the fact that I have this test. I think that's just really remarkable. 

Farai Chideya 

Now it is time for our listeners questions and we asked listeners if they're still masking up and 11% never mask 46% mask when it's indoors and crowded 27% mask always indoors and 17% mask indoors and outdoors. And on top of this, 73% of our listeners felt sad about fewer people masking these days. Here's what one of our listeners had to say. 

Jackson

This is Jackson in Portland, Oregon. I am still masking in indoor public spaces to protect myself and the people working there. COVID is still among us, and the consequences for being infected multiple times are turning out to be pretty dire. I've already had it, so I'm trying to avoid further damage to my immune system by catching it again. I'm sad to still be doing this after three years, but I'm working through the awkwardness in order to protect myself and those I'm close to. 

Farai Chideya

We talked quite a bit about some of the different things to think about, but is there anything we haven't talked about masking that is useful? 

Dr Trivedi

My approach is definitely to mask in venues where I may not know about vaccination rates or smaller get togethers where I know everyone is vaccinated, but I intend to wear a high quality well-fitted mask in an airplane for the foreseeable future. And large venues like a concert or something like that. We saw data during the pandemic that in a community, if more people are masked, the rates of COVID are definitely lower. So as we come out of the public health emergency, as states get to do whatever they want in terms of recommending whatever public health measures they want, populations and communities will probably be seeing very different COVID infection rates because people will. The more people are best, the more protection that there is on a population level. 

Farai Chideya 

So many things that have come out of this era are really social science research as well as medical research. But let me keep going. I could I could wax on, but we have more listener questions. So here's another one. Who should get a booster shot and when? And also, what like do you should you be trying to figure out which booster? But give us a little bit on boosters. 

Dr Trivedi 

So in terms of boosters, we still the recommendation at this point is that everybody should be getting having at least one bivalent booster. So that's very, very important. The Bivalent booster is the booster that has the original formulation against the original strain of COVID and then this Omicron strain that we currently still have circulating that we just recently saw more data from the CDC. We definitely are preventing severe disease and hospitalization with that Bivalent booster. So we definitely recommend people getting the Bivalent booster. I think the other piece is about infection. So if you get infected, if you've been recently infected, when do you get the booster right? That's a big question people have. And again, we had a new study recently published in The Lancet that talked about protection against COVID reinfection up to ten months after that infection that you get. What we're basically finding is that an infection protects you for up to ten months. So my recommendation would be trying to get another get a booster at nine months. If you have not received the Bivalent booster yet because of a previous infection. 

Farai Chideya 

Okay. So I recently went to a conference and just today I got an email that one of the attendees tested positive for COVID 19. So this was a conference of 500 people and I am not shocked and not even particularly shaken. But what do you do when you get a notice like this? 

Dr Trivedi

Three years into this pandemic? Things are so different because we have tests available. We understand this disease better. We have the bat, we have the vaccines upfront. I know you've been vaccinated, so, you know, that's why we feel such a different feeling now than we would have if you had gotten that email two and a half years ago. Right, Exactly. And I think the point now is to know that, okay, you may have been exposed if you weren't wearing a mask at that event and be on the lookout for symptoms in the next few days. If you have symptoms, probably test once you test if you test positive, but you don't want to obviously interact with other people, especially people that, you know, may really have a poorer outcome if they get infected. So, you know, your risk of severe disease and hospitalization very, very low because you have those vaccines on board. The thing is just to know, okay, I have to be vigilant. If I get a sore throat and I will say that that one thing that, you know, we know now COVID infection can be so different for different people and. Times that you've got it. So, you know, if you have a symptom, don't just blow it off, you know, and say, Oh, that's not COVID. I don't have COVID. Go ahead and test yourself. And if the symptoms persist, I would still test by day three of symptoms so you can really ensure that you truly don't have COVID because you don't want to spread it if you don't if you don't have to. 

Farai Chideya

Here's another question about boosters, which is how long should you wait after having COVID before getting a booster? Like, I know people who got COVID on the day they were supposed to get their shot and obviously did not go get it, but how long should you wait afterwards? 

Dr Trivedi

Right. So as I mentioned before, I think I originally and I think the official guidance is three months. Right, to wait three months, 90 days after you have recovered from an infection, that at that point you could go ahead and consider getting another booster. I think that we have more recent data that you could extend that to 9 to 10 months out from the infection, because we surprisingly have seen people have continued protective immunity after a natural infection that may even be as similar as getting two shots of an RNA vaccine. So somewhere between 3 to 9 months, again, this could be an individual risk assessment where you say, you know, I have I'm immunosuppressed, I have other medical conditions. I really don't want to get COVID. So maybe you get it after six months of the infection, but, you know, somewhere between three and nine months. But you could wait up to nine months if you feel comfortable doing that. 

Farai Chideya

What about pregnancy? It seems as if now doctors are starting to evaluate what it means when a pregnant woman gets COVID. What are people looking at? 

Dr Trivedi

Yeah, so for pregnancy, I think it's paramount that you are vaccinated. Early in the pandemic saw a lot of women that had poor outcomes with pregnancy when they got infected during their pregnancy with their babies. And I think the the positive thing about having those antibodies circulate in your in your body from the vaccine is you can pass those passively to your unborn child and then your unborn child will have immunity for up to even looks like what may be one year where they are not eligible to get vaccinated anyway. So you're able to protect yourself, help protect your pregnancy, and certainly provide passive immunity to your child. 

Farai Chideya

So I'm going to wrap it up here. I could talk to you about this all day because I'm fascinated by it. But what about the avian flu? Is there yet another possible pandemic? I kind of want to know if I should be prepared. What do you think? 

Dr Trivedi 

So we're following avian influenza really closely. I will mention that there are many other viruses that we've been following during this pandemic. So Ebola, Marburg virus, now in French Guinea. I mean, there's so many different infections that we are following. I think avian influenza, we are concerned that it could mutate and then transmit to adults. We have a couple of cases in Cambodia right now that we're looking at. So, you know, the way I'm looking at all these emerging infections is we have had a really personal experience with SARS-CoV-2 and COVID 19. And most other emerging diseases don't end up affecting all of us in the same exact way. So I think it's good for us all to be aware that every day is a gift, right? And the way that the world may look right now may not be so in the foreseeable future. So we have to act on what we know now, and we certainly know a lot more about respiratory viruses and how viruses spread. So let's continue to practice those public health interventions that we've learned that work. And and truly, somebody said to me the other day, what's a really big deal about wearing a mask in certain situations, right? Like, it's not that hard in some situations, right. So that I think should be continue to be considered. So avian influenza, we will see more to come. Definitely. 

Farai Chideya

Well, we would love to keep talking to you about cooties. Specifically viruses and other things that we need to know about in health and public health. Dr. Trivedi, thank you so much. 

Dr Trivedi

Thanks so much Farai, it was really nice to be back. 

Farai Chideya

That was Dr. Kavita Trivedi, founder and principal at Trivedi Consultants and Communicable Disease controller for Alameda County in California. 

You are listening to Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. When you see democracy is at stake, black women are at the front lines. That's the case that April Ryan makes in her last book, Black Women Will Save the World: An Anthem. Ryan is a seasoned White House reporter, CNN analyst and the Washington, D.C. bureau chief for The Grio. She knows firsthand the pressure of leading as a black woman. She has been a White House press correspondent for more than 25 years and often one of the few black voices in the room asking the hard questions that other reporters don't. We're asking April about writing this powerful anthem, the State of the Union address and how black women are continuing to lead and preserve our nation's democracy. Welcome back to the show, April, and congratulations on your book. 

April Ryan

Thank you, Farai. How are you? 

Farai Chideya

Oh, I'm doing good. You know what? I love this book so much and become an audio book listener. I was one of these people was like, I just don't know how people listen to audiobooks. And then I just got as I got into radio, I really got into the love of listening to books on tape. If I can use that phrase, and that's the theater of the Mind! 

April Ryan

Theater Of the Mind. 

Farai Chideya

And I loved hearing your voice, saying your words with your story and our story. And I feel so seen by it that I'm thinking about holding a listening group at my mom's retirement community now. Yeah, right. So we can put your audio book on and we could play a chapter a week and just talk about it afterwards. 

April Ryan

My gosh, I would love to come to the group. Yeah, I would love to do that. So let's put that up. But it's so interesting. I hear so many people love the audio book. I hate listening to myself, but. 

Farai Chideya

I hate listening to myself, too. 

April Ryan

No, I know. And I'm so emotional. There are a couple spots in that book. I really can't. I had to hold tears. I had to pull back. You know, writing was cathartic. The tears were coming and flowing. Do I say this? Do I not say this? Okay, I'll put it in there and I'm going to breathe through it. And then we read it together. You know, you re-injured yourself, but it's a good … get it out. 

Farai Chideya 

I relate to that. You know, it's such a interesting and strange time in American history where we are seeing all of the issues of identity, race, class, national origin, you know, gender, sexuality, everything is being debated right now. And you come in very specifically focused in this book on black women. But you focus here in a way that is just absolutely stunningly clear And I think that's the voice and the message that I clung to. So how did you decide on this format and this focus? 

April Ryan 

So let me say this. I am the daughter of a strong black woman who's now transitioned this life, and I miss her, too. If it weren't for her, I would not be where I am. Her strength was in her understanding of who she was, in spite of the nation not believing in wanting black women to be the face of beauty, the face of vulnerability, the face of anything. Right. And we're still in 2023, seeing the first this the first step, which is an atrocity to me. In my way of missing my mother, remembering the lessons that she taught me. And watching all these other women just thrive in spite of and then understanding that in the workplace we're going through microaggressions and still supporting the boss who's getting all the accolades. We just sit back and just praying for a better day in the office. I said I got to celebrate these. When we hold up the church house, we hold up the government house, okay? We hold up the workplace. We hold up the home. We're the first ones there. When something's going on, it's cool. We're the first ones there at City Hall. But the neighborhood's not right. We are the first line of care. The first line of comfort. The first line to bring people in. We have been left in and toton since the day we got here. And I described that in the book. We were taught and forced to give and not receive. We are such givers that we don't stop and take a breath. We're such workhorses. We have to do what we have to do because we're climbing some ladder that never gets us to the place that we want. And I said, Wait a minute. I said, We got to stop. I got to celebrate these women. And I'm shocked that my book has been heralded the way it is because there are not many books out here like that. I've been thinking about this for a long time, particularly when I was on the tour for the last book Under Fire. You know, talking about everything I was going through with the Donald Trump White House, a lot of black women came to me crying that would see them on the road. Oh, my God, you make me feel seen because I'm going through the same thing in my workplace. I'm like, Wow. Mm hmm. For these women to be crying and emoting to me, I said, I have to write about it. 

Farai Chideya 

So in your book, you write about Vice President Harris, who is, of course, the first black, South Asian and woman in the role. That's a lot of firsts. Could you just read a tiny little excerpt for us? 

April Ryan 

Yes, because she is the first vice president. Harris has unique strengths and particular burdens. The president understands this and leverages her unique profile to benefit the overall success of the administration. The truth is that President Biden has relied heavily on black women more broadly since the start of his campaign. Without black women in his inner circle, without the enthusiasm of black women at the voting and without the heroics of legendary organizers like Stacey Abrams, including her legion of followers, the dedicated activists have known most unknown who did the hard work of registering, turning out and protecting voters. Biden would not be president, period. 

Farai Chideya

But what does it mean for President Biden to owe his presidency to the efforts of black women and yet still need to work on triangulating? As we heard in the State of the Union speech, to voters who are skeptical of the needs of black women. 

April Ryan 

You know, it's important that he recognizes it and you see it in the little efforts meeting with this woman or talking to this woman or just putting the faces of those who are suffering through or the person who identifies with whatever initiative he wants to do. But then there are also larger scale issues reaching out to kitchen cabinet members out there. He loves to tout his connection with the black community, particularly real people and the real people that he talks to. He shows his thanks through not just optics, but people who have the pedigree to do the work. Kamala Harris, for all intents and purposes, pushed him to do better if she had not challenged him. And I talk about this in the book. They were really going through something. They had been friends and there was a tension for a while. I said it had to be an act of God for them to ever talk again and look at where they are now. He understood that he needed a black woman. He needed the strength of a black woman. He needed the black woman who really understood service. You know, he had thought about putting Susan Rice and his vice president. But the problem for Susan Rice, a lot of black people didn't know her, but he wanted her so much in his administration because of her capability, her connections, who she was. He gave her a space that did not have to be confirmed because he knew if he made her secretary of state or anything else, she wouldn't be there. But he needed her and he wanted the world to see. Marcia Fudge, You don't even have to say anything about Marcia Fudge, the fighter. When women go to serve, we serve to uplift and love. And when our male counterparts do, it is for ego, money and power. Right. That's a study from our friend Cornell Belcher. Well, we go we go to make a difference. And he realizes that we haven't been in those spaces in places. Shalanda Young, the head of the Office of Budget Management, a black woman, okay, who's dealing with the finances of the nation to look and see: What do we need to do? How can we afford this? Where does it come from? At the end, you know, women black women are showing up in spaces and places that we've never been for. Kamala Harris, Ketanji Brown Jackson, the first black woman Supreme Court justice who looks like us and sounds like us. Then you have another Karine Jean-Pierre and LGBTQ+ community. She comes from Haitian immigrants, migrants. 

Farai Chideya

And of course, with her wife and powerful, brilliant journalist. Yes. 

April Ryan

He put a face on the unseen black women go unseen in too many instances. He brought them in. And I don't think he even realized the magnitude of what he's done. He is the most diverse president. As far as administration staffing than any other president, first it was Bill Clinton. For the Republicans, it was George W Bush. Barack Obama came in. He was very heavy with women in leadership. So he was very gender diverse. But this president is only gender diverse. He's racially diverse. He's LGBTQ+ diverse, but his feet were put to the fire. I believe that he was on the track to do things, but until Kamala Harris challenged him. About the issues of bussing. In that debate. It hurt him. 

Farai Chideya

Yeah, that was that was a tense moment. 

April Ryan

Yeah, it was a very tense moment. Months later, weeks later, he saw me in Detroit at the NAACP Presidential Forum and he said, You know my heart. You know my heart that bothered you. And he kept talking about, you know, we were friends and we supported her for every effort that she tried. I just don't know how to say it. He was saying this to me, but it bothered him. So. That inner turmoil that he had to reconcile within himself pushed him to do better and to go farther than any other president. Issues of race, I mean, weeks, we still got a long way to go. But I believe Kamala Harris, her revelation in that debate worked on him and pushed him to do better and go farther. 

Farai Chideya

Let's talk about a few different women. 

April Ryan

Mm hmm. 

Farai Chideya

Black women that you talk about in your book. Let's start with your mother. Who is she? Tell us about her. 

April Ryan 

Oh, she was the most laid back, classy, peaceful, giving woman that I've ever met in my life or person. She came from humble beginnings in North Carolina. She regaled me always about civil rights and racism. And she taught me how to be. She taught me how to be in the workplace. She taught me how to be in the church, how she taught me how to be a parent and a wife. She taught me how to. Expect. That I can be something that I dream of. She's as long as you work hard and you get a good education, you can do anything you want. She taught me that I could live my life without boundaries and borders. 

Farai Chideya

I love that. 

April Ryan

Yeah. And, you know, she transitioned this life unexpectedly at the age of 64. She died of leukemia. 

Farai Chideya 

Oh, I'm so sorry. 

April Ryan 

Yeah, This is, I think, 16 years and I haven't have a mother. And this is my way of going through the grieving process because I was pregnant with my daughter when she passed. And I had to defer my morning to bring my child into the world because it you know, she is the first woman. That I really look to is she's my pedestal, she is my icon, she's my idol. She's the person that I strive to be. 

Farai Chideya

Yeah. 

April Ryan

And she was very spiritual. She's an amazing person. And I'll tell you how amazing she was. She twirled on the campus of Morgan State University for 42 and a half years until her death. Okay. 

Farai Chideya 

Wow. And that's your alma mater, right? 

April Ryan

My alma mater. I'm an HBCU baby. I was literally born. 

Farai Chideya

I love it. 

April Ryan

So she worked with students. She was in the student activities department. I cannot go anywhere in the world without meeting someone who says, I'll let your mother. Oh, your mother. And it touches my heart. She enabled those. She believed in the future. She believed in black people being and living out their dreams. She enabled so many students. And her legacy is not just me. It's all those students. Oh, your mom was everything, Ms.. Ryan. Ms.. Ryan. It touches my heart. 

Farai Chideya

I love it. 

April Ryan

The goose bumps now is. Yes. Yeah, but she was everything to me in the home. But then she had this whole nother life that she was like the queen there. And I'm like, Oh, my God. So she was an amazing woman. And I hope and pray that I could be half the woman that she was before her death. 

Farai Chideya 

I am just so clear that she is smiling right now, hearing your words of blessing. And bless her. Bless her soul to you. All right. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. 

April Ryan 

Who? See, let me tell you. So I I'll get goose bumps with her to see this black woman unapologetically wearing braids in the U.S. Supreme Court. And when she was not. She could have changed and she could have done something totally different when we are still fighting about. Federal laws to allow us to wear our crown, our braids, locks, you know, in in workspaces in federal areas. She's unapologetically black. She talks about her experiences with her parents who had humble beginnings in Florida. She also quotes Bible scriptures. She also talks about service. And she was, quoting Maya Angelou. And still I rise And let me take someone. Every black woman was lose their mind. But to see that picture. When Joe Biden nominated her and across the aisle was in Baltimore. It was a nice day. And I told my colleague, I said, you go, I've seen history so much. I see you go, hmm. I was at that television clicking my phone, taking pictures because that was a moment we have never seen before. And to have someone who looks like me, who is heralded. And to have those two black women flanking of a white president of the United States. Who? After all these years and to think about how we were first selected to come to this country. Hmm. You know that? The slave handlers. You know, put us in these little rooms. The ones who were selected to go on the journey, they determine through our breasts if our breast sagged. We were spoiled. We had already had children. They wanted us to be ready for something fresh and new and ready to work, you know? So if our breath sagged, we were thrown back. But if our breast were perky, you made the voyage. The question is, did you survive that hard trip across the ocean? Hmm. Where the shark pattern changed because they threw bodies off slave ships. This is why I celebrate black women. Because we've endured. I celebrate us. But it's not pushing any other group away. It's not pushing our men away. But we have had to. Be a force. Be independent. Being the savior of every space because. Our men were taken from us. We had no covering. You know, they would take them in disguise with somebody else, take another plantation. I mean, couldn't fight for us. If they did, they'd be gone. So we've had to learn to be powerful and strong. 

Farai Chideya

Yeah, I was talking. I did something with Michel Martin. Another of our sister journalists and Gloria Steinem. And it was when Vice President Harris was right before the inauguration, when she became vice president. And I was talking about how white women have traditionally in America use the proxy power of patriarchy to get their needs met, to select white men, to be their emissaries. And black women have not had that path and that Vice President Harris was in some ways the culmination of the path of direct leadership versus proxy leadership. Does that resonate for you? 

April Ryan

Yeah. And you brought up Gloria Steinem. And I'm glad because when Donald Trump first became president, she talked about that study that showed how white women, a lot of these married white women voted for Donald Trump, even in the midst of the tic tac scandal, because they were voting, as you said, by proxy through their husbands, who had their economy, who had everything in their home. Right? Yes, that part. Yeah, that was that part 100%. 

Farai Chideya

So let's go back to one more black woman of this era who has met the moment, Stacey Abrams. 

April Ryan

Oh, let me tell you something. She's a winner, even though she didn't win the governorship twice. And that last vote was so tremendous against her and that vote for Kemp did not translate to her so longer. They wanted to make a statement to Stacey Abrams by that vote, because that vote for Kemp did not translate to Herschel Walker. It did not go down the Republican ticket. They wanted her out so much because for this black woman to change that southern state that has been red for so long. A staple we saw on people hunt down a mud, angry like an animal. A state that has a lot of the cradles of the civil rights movement, particularly in Atlanta, Georgia, is like this. And we all say this. You have Atlanta, then there's Georgia. Right. But for this black woman to quietly and she told them what she was going to do to do it, they didn't believe, oh, you never be able to do that. She did it. But they wanted to send her a message saying, you can't do this. But she's so powerful. She won. She won by putting Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff. Instead, it sits in spite of losing the governorship twice. There's a concerted effort to keep her away from this. The effort is because she's a winner. The only reason why they went after her so fiercely is because she won. And we've got to remember that instead of look at all she know, she won. Her trajectory is bright. 

Farai Chideya

You mentioned Ahmaud Aubry. And of course, right now another name is in the news, Tyree Nichols. Yeah, I personally have not watched any of the footage. I have consumed all of the news about his passing by text because I am deeply traumatized, even as a battle hardened journalist who's covered white supremacist for a quarter of a century and many other things. I'm still traumatized by watching another human being suffer and die. What are we meant to do as black female journalists with the quest for truth in an age of social media? And when the death of someone can be shared for reasons good or bad? How do we process that? 

April Ryan

Farai, I'm gonna tell you something. I'm with you. I watched it. I had to take a deep breath, and I watched it for the sake of informing the people who looked to me for answers. I had to do it for that, for that reason alone. But I'm going to tell you, I was adamant that I wasn't going to watch the George Floyd video. My oldest daughter, who's now at American University, she's a sophomore. 

Farai Chideya

Oh, wonderful. 

April Ryan

Yeah. At the time she was like, You are April Ryan. And I was like, What do you said? My daughter was like, Mom, you’re April Ryan. And you got to talk about this in the White House. I said, I'm not. Leave me alone. I said, I can't see you. 

Farai Chideya

They would love to be at your kitchen table. 

April Ryan

Oh, my God, Let me get my child. My oldest. And then the youngest one chimed in, Oh, mommy, I don't know where they got it from, but they are tree hugging, marching, fist pumping feminist. Okay. And just last week it were like, you got to talk about these women in Afghanistan, Mom. I'm like, okay. I said, You want me to go save the war? I said, I don't have an ass on my back, okay? But they made me watch it. I said, Thank you, but it is traumatizing. And we we have to save our minds as well. We have to save hearts, too. But we also have to report. And it's tough. But, you know, when I report, my heart goes out. You know, I am black, I'm a woman. I've been stopped by police. Yeah. Sometimes your journalistic hat comes off because you can understand, and I write so that people understand clearly. 

Farai Chideya

Yeah. 

April Ryan 

What the stakes are, what it's about. And I'm going to tell you, I've been in a space where I've told presidents, this is not new, okay? We have been sheriff and police since the time we came here. This is not new. It took 67 years for Emmett Till to have justice with the anti-lynching law is taken centuries for there to be accountability and the policing of black bodies. Black people should be able to get to court without having street corner justice. Mm hmm. You know, you and I could put on a cap. We don't even have to have a cap. 

Farai Chideya 

Yeah. 

April Ryan

Just a black person in America. 

Farai Chideya

Oh, yeah. 

April Ryan 

Now that I would be subjected to anything like anybody else. And that's the reality. 

Farai Chideya 

Absolutely. I think about you talking about your children. I think about you talking about your mother. I think about my family's history and the intergenerational legacy of struggle of of black women. And so considering how you were hounded during the Trump presidency by the president, who was someone who you needed to talk to, to do your job and everything else that you've seen, where do you think the legacy goes from here? You know, are you hopeful? 

April Ryan

You know, my my oldest daughter, who has been impressing upon me that I need to look at videos and champion women in other countries. She's going to be a psychologist. She's studying for her psychology degree. She wants to be a doctor. She wants to help people who are going through trauma. Service. Right. And yeah, I'm paying that bill right then have to be what she wants to be. But that makes me feel good. And my other daughter, she wants to serve some kind of way. She wants to be a doctor, so she wants to be a surgeon. I said you could be anything you want to be. As long as you have a good education, you work hard. I did exactly what my mother said. I'm trying to create a platform for them to jump off, you know? Yeah, because, you know, we come into this world behind the curve and working at the White House and hearing and see what you see. You have an understanding of what's what. And if I am afforded any opportunity to change the dynamic of any life, I will to include my children. Life is hard, but, you know, I'm here to help. 

Farai Chideya 

Yes. We're going to have to wrap it up here. I could talk to you all day and all night, but you've got a million jobs. So how do you refill your well, what fills you up? What gives you joy? 

April Ryan

Mindless TV. I love it. I leave here and watch the most craziest reality shows ever because I don't want I don't want it to consume my life. Mm hmm. Then from here, I take moments to myself and just think and just quietness. Just therapy in creating. Yes. And it helps you sleep. It works. Another part of your brain that you're not working. Yes. And so I have a candle company. Yes. Yes. It's called Jare Candles, jarecandles.com. 

Farai Chideya

I will be buying some. 

April Ryan

Thank you. We are in five stores. Okay, I'm in Charlottesville. Washington, D.C., National Harbor and Baltimore and more. Coming. Oh, my goodness. But it's a tribute to my mom. The grief, my mourning is still happening. I'm working through the grieving process. Still, 16 years later, when she was dying of leukemia, the oncologist said you cannot burn firewood in the house anymore. You can't have a fireplace fire, you can't barbecue, and you cannot burn paraffin candles. Hmm. Because of the carcinogens. And they said you have to burn soy because 16 years ago we couldn't find soy. Right. And I just did it, you know, about a year and a half ago. It's something to do to work through. And, you know, it's kind of like a little tribute to my mother. And her sister's like, oh, let me let me try one, too. Like, oh, he's a nice friend of mine. Amanda Young over the owner at Mahogany Books. She's a girl. Let me see one of these. She has over 400 of those candles. My gosh. 

Farai Chideya

This is amazing. 

April Ryan

I'm telling we are, don't we? Let me tell you. So

Farai Chideya

That is Beautiful. 

April Ryan 

Thank you. It's born out of my mother's legacy and is born out of my grief and her legacy. But I'm telling you, we just had a big order for over 300 candles that we did at the top of the year for a major organization. I can't say yet because they are going to unveil them. I think the first year we've put out over 400 candles and we did 300 at the top of the air already for this year. So, you know. 

Farai Chideya 

You are on fire. I love I love this. You know, the thing that I would love to do is I would love to do some of the family pickles, you know, like chow chow. Oh, you know, like all of a sudden pickles, you know? Oh, yeah. I grew up canning, so it's been a minute. But you know what, April? It is about time for me to let you go and continue to put that superwoman cape back on April. 

April Ryan

SINGING I’m not your superwoman

Farai Chideya 

And yet you are. It has been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, April. 

April Ryan 

I appreciate you so much. My Baltimore sister. When you come back, you let me know, okay? 

Farai Chideya

100%. That was CNN analyst and the grim White House correspondent April Ryan on her new book, Black Women Will Save the World: An Anthem. 

Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcasts. 

Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. I'm host and executive producer Farai Chideya. Nina Spensley is also executive producer. Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. Emily J. Daly is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booking producer. Anoa Changa is our producer. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Kelsey Kudak is our fact checker. 

This program is produced with support from the Luce Foundation, Open Society Foundation, Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.