On this episode of Our Body Politic, host Farai Chideya listens back to some of the conversations she is thankful for this year. First, is Farai’s most recent interview with Secretary of the Interior, Deb Haaland. Then Farai speaks with Renata Joy, founder of Pure Joy Wellness and Dionne C. Monsanto, Founder of Joyous Ocean about gratitude for good health. We round out the show with guest host Imara Jones and her interview with Oklahoma State Representative Mauree Turner, and then hear The Grio’s Natasha Alford in conversation with Jemele Hill about the gift of allyship in women’s sports.
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This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. We are so thankful for the inspiring and informative conversations we bring to you on our show. So today and trust me, it was hard to choose. We are looking back at some of the guests and guest hosts who've enriched our lives this year. First up is Secretary of the Interior Deb Haaland. She's a member of the Laguna Pueblo tribe and the first Native American to lead the Department of the Interior. And this conversation really centers on gratitude around healing and accountability. Last May, her office released an initial investigative report about the federal government system of Indian boarding schools. The investigation found that between 1819 and 1969, the system included 408 federal schools across 37 states or then territories, including 21 schools in Alaska and seven schools in Hawaii. These schools forcibly removed indigenous children from their homes, changing their names, cutting their hair, forcing them to perform military drills, and forbidding them from speaking their own languages. When children disobeyed, they faced harsh abuse, including whippings, food deprivation and solitary confinement. As Secretary of the Interior, Haaland also oversees the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which administers federal programs to 574 federally recognized tribes. A few months after taking the job, she created the Federal Indian Boarding School Initiative, committed to uncovering the truth behind these boarding schools. As part of her year long Road to Healing Tour, she traveled across the country to listen to survivors stories and help them get the trauma-informed support they need. Let's listen back to that conversation.
Farai Chideya - Among the first initiatives you announced after becoming secretary of the Interior was the Federal Indian Boarding School Initiative. So last spring, your agency released a report outlining the scale and impact of this system. So what are the topline findings from the initial investigation? And did anything surprise you?
Secretary Haaland [00:03:11] The first report that we put out was meant to sort of outline the number of schools, where they were located, how many students were there, what tribes they were from. That was the purpose of the first report. We're working on a second report now. We felt we were very successful with the first report. So it's almost like we were able to bring a lot of the information together in one place for the public to see. Otherwise, you know, it was scattered. People from certain states knew that information, but it was just good to have it all in one place. So we were happy for that. Shortly after that report came out, we felt that we wanted to hear from survivors and descendants directly. And then we announced our Road to Healing Tour. And we've had five of those so far where we go to those particular communities and open it up for anyone to come forward and tell their stories. We want to hear from people. We feel that this is part of the healing process. And… and quite frankly, this whole entire initiative for me and for us, we felt it was important that we had that component of healing. We want people to heal from this trauma once and for all.
Farai Chideya [00:04:33] Yeah. So I met someone who's Ojibwe and she told me that she speaks Ojibwe. She's the youngest of her siblings, but her older siblings were sent off to boarding schools and forbidden to speak Ojibwe. So can you give us a sense of some of the things you're finding out, either from personal narrative or other documentation?
Secretary Haaland [00:04:51] Oh, gosh. Well, yes. The U.S. government felt that one of the tactics they could use would be to take away native languages. It was almost like they wanted to turn all these Native children into non-native children. They wanted to take away their culture, their tradition. At the forefront of any native culture and tradition is their language. So they felt that if they could take that away in sometimes the most brutal ways, that it would give them more leverage over those tribal people. And it was you know, it turned out that if they were able to take the language away from the young kids, they wouldn't be able to communicate with their elders any longer either. So there were elder tribal members back at home who when their children came home, if they came home at all, they wouldn't be able to communicate with them in the same ways. The end result of all of that, all of the oppression, all of the violence, all of the neglect against these children in these schools was that they wanted the land. They wanted to move Indian people off of their land so that they could take over their lands.
Farai Chideya [00:06:20] Yeah. I also had done a documentary series, audio docs, and we'd spoken to some members of the Tohono O'odham Tribe, which is on the U.S. Mexico border. And in this case, as a young man, one of the people we spoke to had been sent away to a boarding school. But his grandparents, he came back and his grandparents were like, Nope, you're just going to speak O'odham. You know, like, we don't care that you don't want to speak it, you're going to speak it. And so he relearned it. But I also think of this tied up with the reproductive health aspects of indigenous women and before sterilizations. Do you see that all being linked and are you looking at it holistically?
Secretary Haaland [00:07:00] Well, these were wholesale assimilation policies, right? It was getting Indians to become mainstream Americans. Killing the Indian to save the man. And so I feel like everything is left to right. I mean, members of my family were essentially victims of those health care issues the way Indian Health Service was run. You know, there wasn't enough funding for them. It was on a shoestring budget. And they made decisions based on funding rather than the health of the person. I mean, after they had taken away opportunities for Native people to have their own food sources, also it made a very unhealthy. Or you think about the killing off of the American bison, right? On the Great Plains. One of the reasons behind killing a thousand bison a day was to take away the food source of the Plains tribes. And so I think a lot of all of this is linked together. And so we're working on this one piece right now. And hopefully that will cause some healing in other areas also.
Farai Chideya [00:08:21] I think a lot about the questions of land. You know, I've spent some time studying broken treaties, and there are small efforts at repatriation, but also large areas of the United States are places that the U.S. promised to preserve under treaty for indigenous people and did not. How are you approaching that as you look at the boarding schools and everything else?
Secretary Haaland [00:08:46] Well, for our part, at the Department of the Interior, we're charged with managing the nation's public lands and cultural heritage for the American people, who are also charged with upholding the trust and treaty responsibilities of the U.S. government. So when I think about those, you know, the things that we're charged with and when I think about the fact that tribes were kicked off their lands to make room for a national park, Right. I mean, that happened in this country where tribes were made to leave their traditional homelands because the United States wanted to make a national park. So for our part, we're working hard to make sure that tribes are at the table when decisions are being made. We're working on co-management opportunities for tribes. We feel very strongly that tribal ecological knowledge is something that we can learn from. They are the first stewards of these lands and we want to make sure that we are taking into consideration their desires for these ancestral homelands that they have. Additionally, there are specific opportunities for us to return land to tribes. We were able to return the national bison range, for example, to the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes. We also were able to return a fish hatchery in Idaho to the Nez Perce. They deserve to be a part of our future because so often they were not part of our past people. The federal government made decisions with never having any tribal leader or tribal person with a seat at the table. So that is all changing. President Biden is his. His leadership makes it a priority for us to consult with tribes across the board, across the federal government, and that's what we're doing.
Farai Chideya [00:10:49] On our show, we cover domestic extremism. And there has been some of the same groups that mobilize around extremist white supremacist causes, also organize around the question of land and who has access to it. How, if at all, are you factoring in the political sentiment in America today into the work you're doing?
Secretary Haaland [00:11:12] What I've said many, many times in speeches I've given and conversations I've had is that our public lands belong to every single American. Right? With that being said, there are certain locations that are sacred to tribes, tribal, sacred sites. There, you know, when when a tribe has a sacred site, regardless of who has title to that land, they have an obligation to protect it. And it's it's dear to them. And so which we always try to take that into consideration. I mean, I'm I am just you know, I feel like I've worked very hard to think about this in a in a calm sort of manner. I want to have conversations with people. I don't, you know, I don't want extremism. I don't want violence. I want us to have the conversations. And there are a lot of other, you know, issues when it doesn't pertain to tribes that we have amazing career staff and my amazing colleagues who who work very hard every day to make sure that we're having the conversations we need to and making sure that that the American people have the benefit of our public lands.
Farai Chideya [00:12:33] Well, Secretary Haaland, I'm so grateful you made some time for us today. We hope that you will come on again. Thank you so much.
Secretary Haaland [00:12:41] Thank you.
Farai Chideya [00:12:43] That was Secretary of the Interior, Deb Haaland. Up next, we're speaking with Renata Joy, founder of Pure Joy Wellness and Diane C Monsanto Chief Joy Connector and founder of Joyous Ocean about being thankful for health and finding joy.
Farai Chideya - I have a very loving but still sometimes aspirational Desperation is desperation on the word because it needs to be. Sometimes my attitude about my fitness is desperational sisters.
Renata Joy [00:13:11] It can be.
Dionne C. Monsanto [00:13:14] It can be. I agree with Renata.
Farai Chideya [00:13:16] So, yeah we've talked to both of you about your careers and you are some of the most amazing fitness professionals and mind body healers around. And yet sometimes I do feel desperational because I just haven't achieved what I think my body is meant to be. And sometimes it's hard to keep the faith. So especially for women in their 50s and 60s. How do you keep refocusing on physical health?
Renata Joy [00:13:45] Well, for me, I am going to be 67 this year. For me, it has to be a priority. And I think a lot of times when I'm working with women, they're in desperation, too, and it's like they're chasing their tail. They're going round around and thinking that it's a lot more complicated than it actually is. So I find the things that I absolutely love to do. Like, for me, I love to jump rope. And the reason I like to jump rope is because it reminds me of the joy I had and the laughter I had with my friends when I was a kid. And so I don't ever want to forget what that feels like. So what I like to tell my clients, find that thing that you love, that it doesn't feel like exercise and do that. If you find the thing that you really love, you'll have more tendency to do that than trying to fit into a box of what you think you're supposed to do.
Dionne C. Monsanto [00:14:43] I 100% agree with that. I love that, Renata. And what's funny is I just spent some time jumping rope with friends over the weekend and it was so much fun. So absolutely.
Renata Joy - It is fun, right?
Dionne C. Monsanto - Yeah. And I'm 56, so I get it.
Farai Chideya [00:15:00] For both of you. You operate on so many levels, your business women, your influencers. If you think about your work with all of its different layers of business and mind, body wellness, how do you think you're affecting the future?
Renata Joy [00:15:16] I think I'm affecting the future by getting women to understand the importance of movement. And a lot of people will say to me, Oh, well, you know, I want to move because I want to get a round booty or I want to move because I want six pack abs. And so here's my philosophy. They ask, why do I move, and I'm 67 years old. And I want women to really understand that you're moving because you want to be able to carry your groceries. You're moving because you want to be able to lift your luggage up and put it in the overhead bin, you're moving because you want to be able to sit down and stand up without assistance. You want to be able to walk without having to use a cane. You want to be able to climb a flight of stairs. You want to be able to function in life so that your quality of life is not hampered. And so when you're thinking about the way that you're eating and you're thinking about the way that you're moving, think big picture. Big picture is as I age, I want to still be able to function. And if you do that, the round booty and all that stuff will probably come along…but that's not the focus. So I want women not to focus on the aesthetics of how I look, but on how is my body functioning?
Farai Chideya [00:16:36] Dionne, what about you?
Dionne C. Monsanto [00:16:38] I echo what she says. That's not something that I have said verbatim to my clients. But the feeling of less about how you look, but more about how you feel. For me, it's about you’re moving your body because your brain is a part of your body. And if you want your life to feel good and you want to feel empowered in your body, you need to move it. If you have a Ferrari, you wouldn't leave it sitting parked in front of your house for a year. You wouldn't drive it. You have to run this phenomenal vehicle that you've been gifted for it to be in optimal health for years to come. And when you have that integration of I'm taking care of my body as my home, hopefully for upwards of 90 years in good health, you will be healthier, happier and wealthier. You know, your health is your wealth and above and beyond your finances.
Renata Joy [00:17:33] I always say too, our bodies are talking to us all the time. Pay attention when you eat a certain food and your body feels bloated or you feel uncomfortable. Pay attention to that because your body's telling you something. When you're under stress. And the first thing that you do is you grab for something sweet. Pay attention to what your body‘s saying. Our bodies are talking to us all the time. They're telling us what we need all the time. We just have to start paying attention to her.
Farai Chideya [00:18:03] How do you look at the business side, the equity side of what you do in the fitness space and whether Black women in the fitness space are getting investment or support?
Dionne C. Monsanto [00:18:15] Most of my investment has been from clients understanding that we as consumers are looking for ourselves. I definitely saw that when I first became a yoga teacher. The students of color, whether it was the dark-skinned Dominican woman or a Black female, someone coming to me going, Oh my God, seeing you there makes such a big difference to me. And then the studios advertising that these people are working there.
Farai Chideya [00:18:44] And Renata, what do you think about the business side?
Renata Joy [00:18:47] We have to, as a community, as a group, start funding each other. I think we have to stop looking outside and look within ourselves and become angel investors. If I see a small business that's run by a Black company and I believe in that company, you put my money there and help them out.
Farai Chideya [00:19:08] Absolutely. We asked our audience, How important is joy in your movement and fitness practice? 50% said top priority. 33% said equal to other factors and 17% reported it wasn't relevant. What do you think of the joyless worker-outers, The 17%?
Renata Joy [00:19:27] I would say the 17% is joyless because they're trying to force themselves to do something that doesn't feel right for them. Find that thing that brings you joy, that doesn't feel like exercise and then do that.
Dionne C. Monsanto [00:19:40] I agree. I would definitely say because everything that I'm doing, I absolutely love doing. What I found with some clients recently as dance breaks have been game changing, like I don't want to exercise. Well, you like going out to dance. You like music? You know, creating your playlists. That is your go to. So having that dance break could be game changing for someone that finds no joy in it, because then you'll do it. It's like, Oh, I'm going to put on my song. I'm going to play my favorite song three times, and that's going to be a 15 minute workout. And then I might do that twice a day. So it becomes normalized as a part of your life. I would say the 17% there may still be searching for themselves and joy in their life because there are periods in your life where you're just not sure who you are, what makes you happy, what doesn't make you happy. So you need to know yourself well enough to know what makes you happy. And I think Renata has nailed that, and I have nailed that. So we share that with our clients and the world.
Farai Chideya [00:20:41] Well, this has been great. Dionne, thank you so much.
Dionne C. Monsanto [00:20:43] Thank you.
Farai Chideya [00:20:45] And Renata, thank you so much.
Renata Joy [00:20:47] It's a pleasure, Farai.
Farai Chideya [00:20:48] Next, while we are abundantly thankful for our guests, there are some other folks we are sending our vibes of gratitude: our guest hosts. These women have become part of the OBP pipeline of talent, and I'm grateful for them every day. Up first is Imara Jones, founder and CEO of Translash Media and host of the investigative series podcast The Anti-trans Hate Machine. Imara spoke with Mauree Turner, the current representative for the 88th District in Oklahoma State House of Representatives. In 2020, they were elected alongside 336 other members of the LGBTQ community across the country. Representative Turner is the first Muslim elected in Oklahoma and the first out nonbinary person elected to a state level position in U.S. history. They self-identify as a queer, non-binary, Okie Muslim. In March 2023, the representative made headlines when they were censured by the Oklahoma legislature. The censure came after Turner was accused of harboring a fugitive. That person was a transgender rights activist accused of assaulting a police officer who went to Turner's office before turning themselves in. Turner's was only the first in a series of censures of state legislators across the country. Let's listen in to Imara's conversation with Oklahoma State Representative Mauree Turner.
Imara Jones [00:22:07] So for people who are not from Oklahoma, can you please tell us about the 88th District? What is it like and how would you describe the needs of the 40,000 people that you represent?
Mauree Turner [00:22:19] Yeah. So 88… it's like the hub of arts, culture, entertainment, education, activism, I think, for a good portion of Oklahoma. Like, long before I even knew what a house district was like, House District 88, it was a place I was coming to often. My brother went to school here at Oklahoma City University, so I spent a lot of time in like high school and middle school here. And it also the 88th district houses our our neighborhood or our 39th Street district, and just a place where so many queer and trans Oklahomans come to be fully and freely themselves. I think still it's still predominantly white. And so another thing that I don't think a lot of people talk about too often is that I am the first Black person to hold this seat.
Imara Jones [00:23:09] I think that both from who you are and the place that you represent. People would be surprised because the thought is that Oklahoma is a firmly red state. Though like so many in places that we consider to be, quote unquote red, does have these areas of blue and others of diversity.
Mauree Turner [00:23:31] You do, you find these pockets all throughout Oklahoma, right. We've got a good portion of historically all Black towns here, like Oklahoma was a place where throughout history folks would come to be fully themselves in places like Norman, Oklahoma, which was, I think a few years back, like dubbed like a safe place for to us LGBTQ+ folks. And you see these places kind of growing to like despite I mean it is a deeply red state right. Which I think keeps a lot of national organizations from looking at Oklahoma. But it is a place where rural Okies like liberal Okies, are continuously fighting to preserve what truly is an Oklahoma standard to just be able to to protect ourselves and our neighbors. Right. To take care of each other.
Imara Jones [00:24:17] Oklahoma is one of the states that bans gender affirming care, along with a series of other anti-trans bills that are being debated and passed. And so I'm wondering, how is it for you going under the dome each day and having your validity questioned beyond just a clash of values, policies and politics?
Mauree Turner [00:24:41] Oh, my goodness. I am deeply introverted. Going into politics was never in the cards for me. I wanted to become a veterinarian and live on a ranch in Montana by myself, you know. So when I go from a place of being an 88 ride and into a capital where I will have Republican colleagues look at me across the aisle or either come to my office and say like, you know, trans folks are made in the image of God, right? Like this is a really powerful thing. And then also vote away our access to health care without even batting an eye. For me, it's just very jarring because as a community organizer, one of my big things is that. People can say anything they want to you, but the action. Right. That's the most important thing, right? And so, like when you tell me that trans folks are made in the image of God and then you go and you vote our rights away, just some of the most heinous legislation that really tries to rip away the humanity of trans Oklahomans, of gender nonconforming Oklahomans. And then at the end of the day, you'll slink off to my office, right, and say, like, I'm so sorry you had to experience that. Or people really don't care about this in my district. But, you know, sometimes we just have to go along to get along, things like that. And I'm like, Well, while you're going along to get along, people are dying, you know? Like, that's a line of work I thought I'd never have to be in.
Imara Jones [00:26:12] So one of the things that we know happened is that all these forces that we're talking about came to a head for you in March when you were censured in March of this year, kicking off a wave of censures. Right. And so I'm wondering for you if you can just talk to us about what happened and what the impact was on you.
Mauree Turner [00:26:35] So the censure itself happened because there was a community member that came to my office, trans community member, and I can't stress enough, right, that sometimes these four walls that I'm sitting in right now are the safest place for trans folks, gender nonconforming folks, two spirit folks. And I think for this interest specifically that outlined and less, I apologize to the body and more specifically to the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, that I would not be reinstated to my committees. Right. I think one thing to also note is that in Oklahoma, a session lasts two years, so they took me off committees this year and committee work was halfway done by the time I was censured. But that also carries over to 2024. So I don't get an opportunity to speak on behalf of the people in House District 88 in committee until I run and am reelected for 2025.
Imara Jones [00:27:40] So I'm wondering what you think your experience says about where the United States might be headed unless more people pay attention to politics. And I ask that because, of course, there are many who say that they fear the prospect of rising authoritarianism in the United States. So I'm wondering if those are concerns that you share as well and where, again, you think we're headed unless we pay attention to what happened to you and and the others that came after you?
Mauree Turner [00:28:13] I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I'm scared. Probably like everybody else. And I think for me the humbling part about being a culmination of all of these identities is that… I understand quite literally that there are some members on the Oklahoma House floor that would buy my family or sell them on an auction block today. If I'm just being honest. Right. But I think about and hold with me every day the fact that if the people on those auction blocks weren't continuously fighting that I wouldn't be here today. Right. And I think that's the thing, right, is that we carry with us power, so much power beyond what we see and so much hurt too. I would be lying if I wasn't honest about that, because people continuously fought to make sure that we were here today, folks that would never know our names or know if we existed. Right. But we're committed to the preservation of community, the preservation of living in the sun with joy. Right. That we don't have to steal between moments of oppression. And I'm committed to that fight.
Imara Jones [00:29:35] Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your experience and what you've learned and what you want the rest of us to learn from everything that you have been through and are seeing, both as an observer and a practitioner of American politics. Thank you so much.
Mauree Turner [00:29:58] Thank you.
Farai Chideya [00:30:00] That was guest host Imara Jones speaking with Mauree Turner, state representative for Oklahoma's 88th District.
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Farai Chideya [00:30:20] We're continuing our reflections of gratitude about the guest and guest host who joined us this past year. I wish we could play them all, but we know you got to eat some food, spend some time with the farm shop for the holiday season. Definitely watch some sports. It's been more than 50 years since the passing of Title IX, the federal law that protects students from sex based discrimination. So much has changed for the better, but there is still a lot of room for progress in women's sports, especially when it comes to how Black women and transgender athletes are criticized by the media. How do we keep making progress for these athletes at the college and professional level and in the way they're covered in the press? Here's Natasha Alford, host of The Grio Weekly, in conversation with Jemele Hill, an Emmy Award-winning journalist who covers sports at the intersection of race, gender and politics, about being thankful for the progress in women's sports and the room that's left for improvement.
Natasha Alford [00:31:13] So, you know, the last time you were on the show, you talked about your book Uphill: A Memoir which you know, I love. It was so dynamic. It was inspiring. But a lot has happened since. So just catch us up. What have you been working on recently?
Jemele Hill [00:31:26] Well, you know, I'm pretty knee deep in this Colin Kaepernick documentary that I'm executive producing that's directed by Spike Lee. So doing that and I'm also still writing for The Atlantic. So, yeah, I mean, as always, I'm good for keeping about ten jobs.
Natasha Alford - You know, you mentioned The Atlantic. I saw this this piece that you wrote, Angel Rees meets the same old stereotypes and it opens us up for this conversation today. We know there's been a lot of controversy about the women's NCAA basketball championship at Louisiana State University, players Angel Reese in particular. So if anybody has been out of the loop, catch us up on what's happening.
Jemele Hill - Well, Angel Reese is one of the best players in women's college basketball. And this was a great match up that everybody was looking forward to because it's Andrew Reese, LSU against Iowa, the Iowa Hawkeyes and Caitlin Clark. Caitlin Clark was national player of the year, best player in women's college basketball. And Angel Reese is one of the biggest personalities also in women's college basketball. She talks trash. She's in your face. And it's not unlike how we often see men play like there is no real difference. Caitlin Clark also talks trash, you know, because she's very confident in her game. And what happened was there was a moment LSU had, you know, the game was well in hand. They were going to win their first women's basketball national championship. And Angel Reese does a gesture to Caitlin Clark that is called that You Can't See me gesture. This is a gesture that John Cena, the wrestler turned actor, popularized when he was one of the biggest names in sports or one of the biggest names, certainly in professional wrestling. And you just wave your hand in front of your face like you can't see me because I'm so good, that's supposed to be the point of it. So she did this to Caitlin Clark, in part because turnabout is fair play. And with Caitlin Clark, you know, a few games prior to that, when they played against Louisville, she scored 40 plus points. It was a hell of a performance. But she did that to Louisville. She said, You Can’t See Me, all right? And when she did it, John Cena tweeted her. It was embraced. People loved it. And Reese gave her a dose of her own medicine. Caitlin Clark, that is. And the reaction to Angel Reese doing it. A Black woman was much different than it was by Caitlin Clark. She got called every name in the book and criticized from end to end. And it just really, as I wrote about in the Atlantic, brought about how perceptions of Black women being overly aggressive or the fact that when we're confident some would even say cocky, how we get treated versus how when everybody else does. And so it was a social experiment that nobody expected that happened that really forced a lot of people to kind of really look at themselves. A lot of people told on themselves with their reaction to how both players, you know, talk trash in a moment of glory.
Natasha Alford [00:34:27] When you say people told on themselves, I think we have to dig even deeper. Right. Because people think just because you don't say the N-word, or you don't use a racial epithet, that somehow racism is not least into, you know, the tone and the word choice of reactions. And some of these reactions were so out of pocket. People reserved a special kind of vitriol for her. And you say that this is an old but consistent story. So what do you think the role of racism plays in moments like this?
Jemele Hill [00:35:00] And not just race, but gender. So there's some intersectionality that's happening here, too, because, you know, in general, regardless of your ethnicity, there is a way that some people believe women should play, just like there's a way that some people believe women should behave. Right. And I did use purposely the word behave. The modern game for women is very different because of the gains made by Title nine. The participation of girls and women in sports is almost equal to boys and men in sports. And because of that, of course, women are, you know, the athleticism we're seeing, the competitiveness, the fierceness, again, all things that men are often praised for when they start to see women doing some of the same things, then it's a problem. I can give you so many examples of men like, you know, just showing out because and I don't have a problem with it at all. I'm consistent. I like it all because I think it it adds entertainment value in the game. But don't sit there and applaud Steph Curry shimmying and then when Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark do that You Can't See me then you got a problem with it because you feel like it's somehow unladylike or is unbecoming of a female athlete to do this. And then there's that bucket of it. And then as you said, there's this sizzling undercurrent of race that is in the language. You know, it's one thing if you criticize Angel Reese and you said, Hey, I didn't like that. I thought that was bad sportsmanship. Okay. To each his own. But the name she was being called, it was so much more severe. You know, as I mentioned, the two examples in the story, you have former MSNBC host Keith Olbermann, who was once a colleague of mine at ESPN. You know, he called her a bleeping idiot. Right. You had Dave Portnoy, who is the founder of Barstool Sports, which has its own issues. I mean, he called her a classless piece of excrement. Okay. This is still a 20 year old college student. Okay. A woman, a 20 year old college woman. Right. That they're calling these names and saying these things about. And even if you just did a quick search on Twitter, some of the names she was being called, it was like, that level of the abuse. That's when you understand what the racial dynamic is like. Just because you don't, you know, is one of those show me you want to use the N-word without showing me you want to use the N-word. And some people were flat out saying it like, don't get me wrong, there was a contingent of people who were not shy about calling her that. And she even spoke to this herself in the postgame press conference because she's heard these critiques all year. Angel Reeses, she wears long lashes. She has long hair. She is a very, like strong, demonstrative personality, which I think is good for sports and good for the confidence of women. But people, you know, have called her too ghetto and too hood and all this other stuff. So she's had to hear these things about herself. So you better believe in a moment of glory. She was going to remind you exactly who Angel Reese was. But this is that tricky intersection of both race and gender, a dynamic that her white counterparts in her sport don't necessarily have to deal with is the racial component, which, you know, sends us to an additional layer within this conversation
Natasha Alford - for sure. And I have to point out that you did respond to David Portnoy calling Angel Reese classless.
Jemele Hill - using the same language that he used with her.
Natasha Alford [00:38:15] There's a little, little medicine. Tell us why, though. What moved you?
Jemele Hill [00:38:18] Well, what made me to do it is like there's an extra layer of protection that Black women and girls need because we don't often get it. And when we do get it, typically it comes from each other. Right? And that's not to say that men or Black men in particular never protect us. So I'm not I'm not accusing them of that. But I'm just saying, more often than not, we are our own defense. And I just thought it was important as a Black woman who's often been subjected to similar abuse, and especially from one of these people, Dave Portnoy, that it was important that a line be drawn in the sand. And I wasn't the only when they drew it, Shaq did it. A lot of people came to Angel Reese's defense because we see what's happening. A lot of Black athletes came to her defense because many of them have had to deal with the same accusations of being called classless, being called bad for the game. And they're doing the same things that their white counterparts are doing. And when, again, when they do it, its considered to be revolutionary and welcoming and cool. But when a Black athlete does it, it's different.
Natasha Alford [00:39:14] Well, speaking of insults, Angel Reese heard about Dr. Jill Biden suggesting that maybe Iowa should come to the White House with LSU and all be a happy family and celebrate. As well-intentioned as that was, Angel Reese called that a joke. She was not too happy about the suggestion that the championship winning team should be there with the losing team at the White House. And it's something that you spoke up about as well. And I wonder, you know, this moment, how does it reinforce the longstanding double standards that are pushing Black women athletes out of their rightfully earned spot? Like how does this continue to happen where people just don't see that it's undermining the glory that Black women and Black athletes in general deserve in these moments?
Jemele Hill [00:40:01] Yeah, it's very tricky for a lot of Black people, but I think especially for Black women, because erasure is an issue that we have to deal with all the time. And so I think that's something… the invisibility, the lack of credit is something that Black women it's just a constant, long standing historical fight. And we've seen in our workplaces, in our communities and various environments, a lot of times where even if we're in the midst of a great accomplishment or we've done a good job, we've seen suddenly that conversation shift to center whiteness. And I'm sure at the time, watching such a great game, and this game, by the way, is the most watched women's college basketball game in history. In history.
Natasha Alford - What an accomplishment right there. Yeah.
Jemele Hill - Yeah. I mean, 10 million viewers. I mean, to give further context, the men's national championship game drew 12. So they were within striking distance of having a game that rated just as high as the men's. So this is a banner moment for women's college basketball. And I know it was a great game. Great competitors, two great outstanding players in Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark. And I'm sure after seeing that even though Iowa got wiped, she was thinking, oh, it would be great to have both of these teams at the White House. But in that moment, which should have been purely about LSU's accomplishment, them winning the first ever national championship for women's basketball at their school, the whiteness get centered, the whiteness being Caitlin Clark in Iowa. Right. And that is something that Black women have had to deal with forever. And for the people who were telling me like, oh, why would you make it a racial issue? Well, let me ask you this. Do you think if LSU would have lost that she would have invited them to the White House? She would not have.
Natasha Alford [00:41:47] Caitlin Clark. You know, it's interesting. She was praised for her performance, but she also put out a statement defending Angel Reese. And I wonder, Jemele, do you think it's enough? And what can people who want to be allies in moments like this do?
Jemele Hill [00:42:04] I thought it was significant that Caitlin Clark put out that statement and that she did a few interviews in which she publicly voiced how much respect she has for Angel Reese as a player and how she never felt like she should have faced that level of criticism or any criticism at all for doing the You Can't See me gesture. She also said she never even saw it. So, like you have these people were up in arms. She was like, I promise you, I did not see her do it. I focus on the fact I just lost the national championship. Like I didn't really have time to really take care of my surroundings at that point. But she not only came to defense of her, she also said she would not want to go to the White House if there was an invitation extended. And I think that was kind of how the entire team… she was speaking for the team in that moment is like, I don't think they ever would have wanted to steal LSU's moment, even if there was a formal invitation that had gone out to them. And so often what I tell people who desire to be allies is that you actually have to take it deeper than just being an ally. You know, it's more like you need to be an accomplice. It's like you need to put something on the line, too. I thought it was great that she did stick herself out there a little bit because she didn't really have to do it. And so when those people were thinking about like, how can I be a better ally, the best way to me you can be one is when you challenge something, support something, support somebody, support an issue when it's not beneficial, when it's not comfortable for you to actually do it. Something that may cost you some social standing, something that may cost you a friendship or two, something that may cost you. Perception is that you got to wage something. You got to put something on the line to me to be a real ally.
Farai Chideya [00:43:47] That was Natasha Alford, host of The Grio Weekly in conversation with Jemele Hill, award winning sports journalist and author of Uphill: A Memoir. Before we go, I'm not the only one around here giving thanks. Let's hear from some of the OBP staff about what they're most grateful for at this time of year.
Emily Ho [00:44:09] My name is Emily and I'm a producer for Our Body Politic. I'm feeling super grateful this year. Just being in my body and experiencing movement, joy and spontaneous moments in the same space as my loved ones, my family, my friends and my peers, especially when it's unplanned to be able to come together and share an adventure or share a new memory. I'm super grateful for that this year.
Natyna Bean [00:44:39] This year more than any other year. I am grateful for community. I have learned so much about love and love as praxis, you know, beyond theory, beyond the sayings specifically as it pertains to community care, either with my bio family or my chosen family. There is so much to be gained from being open and honest and being open to receive and learn and adjust and show up for folks. Resource sharing isn't only material, it can also be your time. It can be your insight. It can be your grace. You know sometimes folks don't have enough grace for themselves. And if you have extra, lend them some, show them some. That's what I'm grateful for.
Bridget McAllister [00:45:42] This is Bridget McAllister, the booking producer for Our Body Politic. I am grateful this year for my daughter, who just turned one a couple months ago and my husband and the support network and family that we have that keeps us sane. Keeps us laughing and having fun. I couldn't have gotten through this year without them, and I wouldn't have wanted to. Happy Thanksgiving.
Nina Spensley [00:46:11] Nina Spensley, Co-EP and GM of Our Body Politic. I'm grateful for the wonderful team that makes this show possible and the opportunity to bring our OBP lens to the media landscape.
Shanta Covington [00:46:29] Shanta Covington, co-executive producer of Our Body Politic. And the thing I'm most thankful for is the support and love that I get from my family and friends. No matter how moody I might be or the headspace I'm in, they continually love me and lift me up. And I don't know…and actually, I do know, I wouldn't want to do this life without them.
Emily Daly [00:46:57] My name is Emily Daly and I'm the senior producer. Our Body Politic. And I am grateful for the incredible community that helps me take care of my wonderful two year old kiddo. And what are you grateful for? I’m grateful for Nana. You're grateful for Nana? Yeah. Can you say bye bye? Bye bye.
Farai Chideya [00:47:25] Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcasts. We'd also like to invite you to sign up for our newsletter where we share additional insights and resources for the OB community. Check us out on Instagram @OurBodyPolitic and click on the link in our bio.
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora farms and Rococo Punch. I'm host and executive producer Farai Chideya. Nina Spensley and Shanta Covington are also executive producers. Emily J. Daly is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booking producer. Andrea Asuaje, Ann Marie Awad, Natyna Bean, Morgan Givens, Emily Ho and Monica Morales Garcia are our producers. Amelia Schonbek is our fact checker. Our associate producer is David Escobar. Our technical director is Mike Garth.