Our Body Politic

Lt. Governor Mandela Barnes on the Campaign Trail, and Bodily Autonomy in Iran

Episode Summary

This week Farai talks to Wisconsin’s Lt. Governor Mandela Barnes about what inspired his run for the U.S. Senate, and how he sees the politics of division. Then, foreign policy expert Hagar Chemali interviews Firuzeh Mahmoudi, co-founder and Executive Director of United for Iran, about the youth and woman-led protests for bodily autonomy in Iran. And on our weekly segment, ‘Sippin’ the Political Tea,’ Farai is joined by Michelle Singletary, financial columnist at The Washington Post and Bryan Greene, Vice President of Policy Advocacy at the National Association of REALTORS®, to break down how inflation and rising interest rates affect homeownership.

Episode Transcription

Farai Chideya:

Hi folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting the show if you are able. You can find out more at ourbodypolitic.com/donate. We're here for you, with you and because of you. Thank you.

Farai Chideya:

This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Election Day is rapidly approaching and this week we take a look at one of the most hotly contested seats for the United States Senate in Wisconsin. After clearing a crowded field in the Democratic primary, Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes is trying to replace Republican senator Ron Johnson. Barnes is the first Black person in Wisconsin ever to be elected lieutenant governor and only the second Black person ever to hold statewide office. If elected to the Senate, Barnes would join a small but notable group of Black senators to serve over the last 233 years. Senate Democrats hope to pick up at least two more seats. Some Democrats favor abolishing the filibuster if they get those seats, which could affect issues like voting rights and abortion. And while protecting abortion access has become a rallying cry for Barnes and other democratic candidates, the economy remains top of mind for voters across demographics and political affiliations.

Farai Chideya:

Johnson, who we asked for an interview but did not hear back from, currently leads Barnes in the polls for what it's worth. News reports indicate that Johnson could be preparing for the possibility of a recount given the close race. Financial disclosures show that he's made two payments for legal consulting to a law firm led by former Trump campaign attorney Jim Troupis. According to reports, Troupis allegedly played a role in the failed fake elector scheme after the 2020 election. And while Barnes may be his political opponent, at the state GOP Convention in May, Senator Johnson called the media his main and the quote, "Worst opponent anyone could have." I spoke with the lieutenant governor about what he thinks the stakes are in the midterm election. Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes, welcome to Our Body Politic.

Mandela Barnes:

Hey, thank you so much for having me.

Farai Chideya:

We are thrilled. And so you've talked about growing up in one of Wisconsin's most impoverished zip codes, being raised by parents who are union workers. How did that shape your desire to engage in politics at this level?

Mandela Barnes:

Well, I'll tell you, that's what made me exactly who I am today. It's why I chose public service. Recognizing the challenges that a lot of people around me face, but also what made the difference for me when I talked to people on the trail during my time as Lieutenant governor or even when I was a state representative, it's important for me to make sure that every child growing up, regardless of their zip code, has at least the same opportunities that I had. Now my granddad, he moved to Milwaukee after World War II. He got a job as a union steel worker. He was able to retire comfortably, and that's what set the foundation. And those opportunities are in short supply these days. It's harder and harder for people to get access to the middle class. It's harder for people to get ahead no matter how hard they're working. And that's because the deck has been stacked against them by out of touch politicians that are doing the business of serving their own personal interests while leaving working class people behind.

Farai Chideya:

You became lieutenant governor by running a successful statewide campaign. Some lieutenant Governors have to run on their own, some are appointed by the governor. That was in 2018. So what did you learn about your fellow Wisconsinite and yourself from that race?

Mandela Barnes:

So I was fortunate in the assembly to get to travel this state a whole lot. So I had some familiarity, but running for lieutenant governor gave me an opportunity to really connect the dots. It gave me an opportunity to be able to tell my story, my very Wisconsin story that is specifically a Milwaukee story, and also connected to the lives of people, whether they were in Superior, whether they were in Wausau, whether they were in Eau Claire or Green Bay. All over the state people are going through the same exact things. People are looking for the same exact things. People want good schools send their children to. People want to be able to go to a doctor and not worry about a surprise bill. And people want a good job that puts food on the table. And these three opportunities to give folks a fair shot has been in decline and people have had to, unfortunately, experience this in more ways than we care to count.

Mandela Barnes:

We see the loss of manufacturing, good jobs being shipped overseas. We also see small family farms being squeezed out by large corporations. But the worst part about it all is you have politicians that subscribe to the politics of division. People who want to tell you that there's this urban rural divide or their wants mean that you don't get as much. When in all actuality, we're all losing out, because out of touch politicians that are in it for themselves and only in it for their big wealthy donors while leaving working people behind. And it's unfortunate that a lot of the public falls for this stuff because when times are tough, it's easy to blame somebody else or it's easy to feel like somebody else is responsible, especially if those who have the power to change things are the ones telling you that somebody else is responsible for your despair.

Mandela Barnes:

So having started as an organizer, always knew the importance of working to build bridges and to build coalition. And building that coalition, it wasn't specific to a certain region, certainly not specific to a certain race or religion. It was about bringing everybody together for a common purpose, for a common goal. And I felt the same way in 2018. When we had a common goal; the need for our schools to be fully funded, the need for us to take climate change seriously, the need for us to create good paying jobs, the need for us to expand healthcare. And I shared the same message all across Wisconsin, whether it was in Milwaukee or whether I was in Platteville.

Farai Chideya:

You talk about the politics of division, but sometimes divisions between voters are what motivates them to vote. And so Wisconsin's abortion ban originally passed in 1849 is currently being challenged in court given the Dobbs decision. And you launched a Ron Against Roe tour pointing out differences with your opponent. So what are you prepared to do to protect abortion access?

Mandela Barnes:

The Ron Against Roe tour is holding him accountable, pushing him to answer to the people why he has taken such dangerous positions that compromise people's health. His position is way too out of touch and too extreme for Wisconsin. People in this state think that Roe should be the law of the land. And we've heard some heartbreaking stories on this Ron Against Roe tour, some of our round tables. And it is a complete disregard that people like Ron Johnson have for the health, the safety, and the life of women in Wisconsin. Across the country for that matter. And we can end the filibuster.

Mandela Barnes:

We can get two more seats in the U.S. Senate, get rid of the filibuster and codify the right to choose and protect abortion access once and for all. Not only can we have a Democratic majority, we can have a pro-choice majority. And the pro-choice majority is what it takes to actually get the job done, and to deliver, to protect the health and safety of women all across this country. Now, here in Wisconsin, unfortunately we do have that criminal abortion ban. And Senator Johnson's response was the women that don't like the laws of their state can just move. It is a callous position. It shows a lack of respect for the people he was elected to represent. And this November 8th, he's going to have to answer to those same exact people that he continues to turn his back on

Farai Chideya:

Polls, for what it's worth, show you trailing your opponent, Senator Ron Johnson. And here's a bit of Johnson at the first debate.

Ron Johnson:

So if you want to reduce crime, first of all, you have to fully fund the police. And of course, my opponent is opposed to fully funding police budgets.

Farai Chideya:

Now, some Black voters and other voters of color are choosing the candidate with a traditional tough on crime message alignment with the police. One example on the mayoral level is Eric Adams in New York. How are you appealing to voters of any race, but especially voters of color, who say crime is their top issue?

Mandela Barnes:

Crime has been a top issue for me personally. I've lost friends to gun violence. I lost more friends than I care to count to gun violence at high school. And so when I say crime is an issue, I look at the whole of it. There's a real approach that we need to take. When I mentioned my granddad having worked at A.O. Smith for 30 years after World War II, that's when jobs and opportunity were in abundance. And at that time, my granddad had a good job in a safe city. It was when those factories close their doors and we saw the decline in opportunity is when we ended up with a rise in crime of violence because of desperation. People were left with very few options. And I look at the moment we're in now with rising poverty. Over the course of this pandemic, six to seven million new people found themselves in poverty. I think it's important to explore that correlation, right?

Mandela Barnes:

And if we don't have good paying jobs, if we don't have fully funded schools, if we don't have activities for our children, then things are going to be out of control. That's why we need to do everything we can to prevent crime from happening in the first place. But we can do the work to make sure police have the resources they need. In fact, our state budget increased funding for law enforcement public safety initiatives. The American Rescue Plan Act allowed our administration to invest funding into law enforcement, public safety and crime prevention initiatives. And a lot of people ignore the other side of it. Of course, you want to have the resources to respond to crime, but what makes us all safe is making sure we do everything we can to prevent crime from happening in the first place. That's what makes police officers' job easier.

Farai Chideya:

And another big topic that some voters are really plugging into is basically the question of how viable our democracy is and what are the threats against it? And there's so many ongoing investigations into the aftermath of January 6th, the current Oathkeepers trials, et cetera. You have talked about democracy being on the line. What does it mean to you to run for office in a way that presumably protects democracy?

Mandela Barnes:

Well, it's absolutely on the line. The very first plan my campaign released was a democracy and accountability agenda. And a part of that agenda is holding people who want to subvert elections accountable. People like Ron Johnson who tried to send fake electors to the vice president. He tried to send a fraudulent slate of electors to the vice president because he didn't get the election result that he liked in 2020.

Mandela Barnes:

He looked every single voter in this state in the eye, and he said, "Your vote doesn't count. Your vote doesn't matter." And on top of that, he supported a violent insurrection that left 140 officers injured. He said these people were patriots and he wasn't afraid, but he would've been afraid that they were Black Lives Matter activists.

Farai Chideya:

This has definitely been discussed in his text messages, what he said around January 6th. But some voters really like that. How does it make you feel that some voters actually... That's a plus for a candidate?

Mandela Barnes:

Well, yeah. The part about it is there're way more people that don't, and there're always going to be people that disagree with you. Always going to be people who see things differently. But the reality is there are way more people here in Wisconsin and across the country who understand what it means to do the right things, who understand what it means to protect and strengthen democracy. People who are committed to making sure that the future is much better than the past. And I'm a glass half full person. Fortunately in this regard it's much more than half full when it comes to the people who want to see our democracy thrive in spite of people like Ron Johnson who want to tear it apart.

Farai Chideya:

That was Lieutenant Governor of Wisconsin Mandela Barnes, Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate. Coming up next, foreign policy expert Hagar Chemali speaks to Firuzeh Mahmoudi, co-founder and executive director of United for Iran, about the youth and woman led protest taking place in Iran.

Plus rising interest rates and home ownership with Michelle Singletary of the Washington Post and Bryan Greene of the National Association of Realtors. That's on Our Body Politic.

Farai Chideya:

Welcome back to Our Body Politic. This week, we've invited a friend of the show, foreign policy expert Hagar Chemali, to break down what's happening in the uprising in Iran, which is being led by women and young people. Take it away, Hagar.

Hagar Chemali:

Thanks, Farai. I'm excited to be here. We have entered the second month of protests in Iran, which were sparked following the death of 22 year old Mahsa Amini on September 16th. She was killed while in the custody of Iran's morality police after being detained for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly. A hijab is the headscarf worn by some Muslim women to cover their hair. And in Iran, it's legally mandated.

Protestors led by women are burning their hijabs and cutting their hair, calling for the end of the regime. To discuss. I'm joined by Firuzeh Mahmoudi. She's the executive director of United for Iran, which is an organization that fights for civil liberties and human rights inside Iran. Welcome, Firuzeh.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

Thank you so much for having me, Hagar.

Hagar Chemali:

Thank you for joining us. We have seen protests in Iran several times before, but these feel different. What makes them different or are there any aspects of these protests that have surprised you? For example, can you tell us about who's protesting and where these protests are taking place?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

These protests are absolutely distinct from the other protests we've seen in the last 40 some years since the Islamic Republic Revolution. This protest is unified in its voice in an unprecedented way. It is led by women throughout the country, and the main reason we believe it's so unified is because the intersectional perspective that they bring to the table. And we've seen the galvanizing of all the various ethnic minority groups in a way we haven't seen before. The Islamic Republic aims to, until now, fairly effectively divide the various ethnic minority groups in a way to pin them against each other.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

And this time we're seeing a common voice and everyone advocating for each other. We are also seeing a unified voice among various socioeconomic groups. Everyone's out in every facet of society continuously, and it's geographically diverse. We're seeing parts of the country and small cities that we've never seen protests. Southern Tehran, where it's a poor area, we're seeing protests we've never seen before.

Hagar Chemali:

Can you talk to us a little bit about the resistance to the mandatory hijab in Iran? Given there is a long history of its resistance since it was initially imposed in 1983, why does the Iran regime feel so strongly about this issue and why are they acting so threatened by opposition to it?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

So the Islamic Republic has intertwined its identity and its tools of oppression with the hijab. They began this shortly after the revolution and the woman of Iran were the bellwethers of saying that if the Islamic Republic is able to essentially oppress half of the population, then there will be no stopping them. And they were correct.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

So although this is about a physical hijab, it is much more than that. It is also about body autonomy, freedom of expression, gender equality, and having agency over one's life. So it's much more than that. And what I've also seen women say is, "Yes, I'm fighting to not have a hijab, but also my protest is much bigger than that. It's about the old man on the street that cannot feed his children. It's about the woman who cannot say what she wants to say or go to a soccer stadium to watch a game."

Hagar Chemali:

How does the Iranian regime use the hijab to control women?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

So Islamic Republic is a theocratic authoritative dictatorship, right? So they use this tool as a way to control people. They have been tried to oppress women throughout the country and they haven't been able to, because people want to lead their life the way they want to lead it.

So there's been this push and pull, there's a morality police that was created to control the woman many years back, and tens of thousands of people arrested every year by the morality police. These woman are stopped because of their hijab.

Hagar Chemali:

Can you explain a little bit about the morality police? Who are they? Who makes up the morality police, and what do they do exactly?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

The morality police was started during the presidency of Ahmadinejad and there are government officials that, unlike the police, focus on holding order on the government ideology and beliefs. So they stop women on things that they claim not to be Islamic and it's their way of holding cultural control over the country. And it's very much tied into their theology and ways they control the population. They stop folks if they listen to music in their cars, if they're out with people they're not married to, if they are at parties drinking alcohol and if a woman's hair is out, for example. They look not proper, in their perspective.

Hagar Chemali:

The Iranian regime, so far, has cracked down on protestors and they've used tear gas, batons and live ammunition. And this is not generally surprising since it's also how the regime has reacted to protests in the past. Where do you think it could go from here? Do you see the Iranian regime making any kind of concessions? How serious of a challenge are these protests to them?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

Such a good question. Yes. What we're seeing is nothing new. This oppressive model that the Islamic Republic has been prevalent throughout its existence. And the Islamic Republic more and more has its back to the wall where this is literally the only thing that they're good at. This is the only tool they have. So they have put themselves in definitely a bind in the sense that there is such widespread and now consistent, as you mentioned, we're about to enter the second month, protest that's throughout the country and if not international, that if they don't give any concessions, I'm not quite sure how they would square that.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

On the other hand, if they allow women what they want to have, they no longer have the identity that they've built their entire regime upon. So I'm not quite sure how they want to address this, but either way, it's going to be extremely difficult for them to navigate what's to come.

Hagar Chemali:

You mentioned how these protests are spanning different geographical locations in Iran and across different socioeconomic backgrounds and so on. Can you tell us a little bit about the relevance or the significance of protests that have taken place and strikes at oil refineries? And also the fire that broke out at Evin prison?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

Absolutely. I want to first start with talking about the various ethnic religious minorities that are being harassed and the diversity, as I mentioned. We are seeing protests throughout the country and usually the pattern we see during uprisings is that the Islamic Republic targets the ethnic minority regions; the Kurdish regions, the Baluchi regions. And they crack down with immense force killing many, many. And usually what that results in is for the rest of the country and Tehran and the other bigger cities to slow down and for the protests to end. And we've seen the same kind of oppressive behavior this time.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

We've seen in Zahedan area, in Baluchistan children being killed and they killed so many people that they ran out of blood. And we've seen this in the northern region in Gilan city of Rasht, throughout the country. And instead of this slowing down the uprising, in fact it fed it. And people were outraged and they came in the streets more and advocated for folks in other parts of the country. So everyone's advocating for each other. We all witnessed something... Perhaps it was one of the longest nights we have all witnessed in years. Surely since the uprising.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

Evin prison, which some people call the University of the country, because so many student activists are there, all the political activists. Essentially most of them are housed there, journalists are housed there. The brightest and the boldest, the bravest of our country are housed there, right? This prison. The prison was on fire and there were gunshots. All the roads around it were blocked. And although we don't exactly know what happened, we know that people were killed and that family members of those inside the prison were outside. Again, this perhaps a tool they're trying to use if they want to do other things to distract folks or they want to oppress people and scare people to keep them at home. But, again, this time it's different because all of these oppressive behaviors are feeding the fire further instead of slowing people down.

Hagar Chemali:

Which beckons the question, do you think these protests will continue? It's clear the Iranian government has decided to use a policy of indiscriminate violence in response to the protests.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

Absolutely.

Hagar Chemali:

If they were able to quash these protests, what do you think that means for how Iranian citizens feel and how they will proceed in their opposition to the regime and to the mandatory hijab?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

So to answer your question about do we think the protest will continue, that's a million dollar question. And every interview I've been on I've been asked that question, and truly we don't know. I've read wide range of things and I hear so many opinions and I have my own. We see tweets that say, "Well, this may not be the last episode, but it's surely the last season," on one hand, that we know is unprecedented. And we know on the other hand that the Islamic Republic, really the biggest player is the Revolutionary Guards, and they have a grip of the military and of the government and of the Basijis. They have the arms, and they have so much control, and they are willing to use all of their force to stay in power and they're incredibly corrupt. So all of those components make it difficult to know exactly how things will go.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

I know that it will be extremely difficult, that the Pandora box is open and there's no going back in some ways. One thing we're seeing with the young generation in Iran that's leading the protest is the incredible amount of clarity, bravery, wisdom, both intellectual and emotional wisdom. And it is both inspiring and incredibly heartbreaking, because that level of clarity and bravery comes with not having a childhood. Essentially, they live under such oppressive regime that they are wise beyond their years. This new generation of brave women and men essentially have decided that they have had enough, that they're willing to put their lives on the line in order to bring about change. They realize that the Islamic Republic will use its arms, will use guns, will use violence with impunity, and at the same time they are willing to pay the cost with their lives and they're going on the streets.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

So because we haven't seen that before, it's really hard to know how things will continue. And if they believe that they can make change, they're putting their lives on the line, they wouldn't be doing that if they didn't believe that they could bring about change. I believe those of us outside can support them most by also believing that change is possible and standing right next to them. Not in front of them and telling them how they should lead and if they should be on the streets, but next to them. If that's what they believe, I'm going to stand there and say, "Yes, change is possible."

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

And we have seen in various global movements and uprisings that we don't see the change or the shift until it actually has happened. We don't know exactly how this is going to roll out, if this is a five months thing, two months thing, much longer. But the people of Iran and this younger generation have made it clear that they will not stand for this oppressive regime any longer.

Hagar Chemali:

You're listening to Our Body Politic. I'm Hagar Chemali, bringing you a conversation on the Iranian protests with Firuzeh Mahmoudi. She's the executive director of United for Iran. That's a perfect segue to talking a little bit about the global reaction to these protests. We saw President Biden respond faster and more firmly than President Obama did when he faced anti-Iran regime protests in 2009.

Biden expressed support for the protestors and the U.S. moved quickly to impose sanctions on the morality police. And the U.S. also lifted other sanctions to allow for technology imports to work against the internet shutdowns being imposed by the regime. How much of a difference do you think these steps make?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

I think if we look globally, it's incredible the amount of support this movement has had. We've seen perhaps one of the most misogynistic, oppressive regimes on the planet being met with perhaps the biggest feminist movement at the national level, if not the region. It's incredibly bold and the message is incredibly clear. And I think because it's a woman led movement and it's so brave, and so bold, and so young, that we've seen this level of global reaction and support. We've seen it in every facet of society. We've seen it around athletes, actresses and actors, prominent individuals, citizens, musicians. The Iranian diaspora community has had incredible protests of hundreds of thousands of people globally. And me, as a Iranian activist, I feel it day to day the number of people coming to me, "How can I help?" Right? So we're seeing that.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

And governments also are huge part of this component and we've seen so many governments stand up and say, "We will not tolerate this." And I think those steps that have been taken to target the bad actors, to allow internet access and technology access inside the country, these are all important steps that all governments should take. Essentially what needs to happen is creating protection, and support and room for those inside to lead as they wish and magnifying their voices. That kind of support is always welcome.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

I think the line, for me, is when the line is crossed from supporting the existing movement and giving it whatever it needs and asked for to do what it wants. To moving towards diplomacy where there are ulterior motives and national priorities at play and making decisions based on those. And I have not seen that yet. So I think so far we're doing really great in our advocacy, both politically as well as global solidarity movements that we are seeing.

Hagar Chemali:

Since many people are asking, how can people who are interested in supporting the Iranian protestors go about expressing solidarity with them? Some people are worried they may come off as Islamophobic if they come out against the hijab, for example. What would you say about that and to them?

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

Right. So when we see a protest and we want to support and advocate for it, we listen to what those individuals and citizens want and we advocate and support that. And Iranians inside the country are advocate for body autonomy. They're not advocating for no hijab, they're advocating for no compulsory hijab, right? That's the distinction. We see protests inside Iran where women are together, some have covered and some don't, and they're all saying the same chants and holding the same signs. So I think if the message inside the country is very clear. That they want change, they want to have body autonomy. And I don't think in any way anyone supporting a unified message and voice will be seen as Islamophobic. They will be seen supportive of body autonomy and agency.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

To support the movement, I think it's critical for us to continue talking about this, reading about this, sharing about this, small and big acts of solidarity, supporting those working on this issue and keeping it in the media. I remember that I started United for Iran in 2009 after that uprising. And Iran was in the media every single day until Michael Jackson died. And then it could not get any more media coverage. So continuing this dialogue, and if they're on the streets, literally giving up their lives... We've seen 28 children at least killed by the government. These are teenagers who are going out and advocating for their rights. If they're doing that, we outside continue talking about it and knowing their stories and sharing them is paramount.

Hagar Chemali:

Thank you so much, Firuzeh for joining us.

Firuzeh Mahmoudi:

Thank you for having me.

Farai Chideya:

That was Hagar Chemali, foreign policy expert and host of Oh My World on YouTube interviewing Firuzeh Mahmoudi, co-founder and executive director of United for Iran.

Farai Chideya:

Coming up next on our weekly round table Sippin' the Political Tea, we get into inflation and the housing market with Bryan Greene, vice president of policy advocacy at the National Association of Realtors and Michelle Singletary, financial expert at The Washington Post. You're listening to Our Body Politic.

Farai Chideya:

This is Our Body Politic. We are keeping an eye on the economy as inflation continues, even as interest rates rise. One way for people to build wealth is through home ownership, but the recent rise in interest rates makes buying a home much harder, particularly for Black and Latino families who on average have a fraction of the wealth of white families. Joining me this week is Michelle Singletary, personal finance columnist at The Washington Post, and an author of books on personal finance as well as Bryan Greene. He's a writer and vice president of policy advocacy at the National Association of Realtors. Welcome back, Bryan.

Bryan Greene:

Thank you. Great to be back, Farai.

Farai Chideya:

And Hi, Michelle.

Michelle Singletary:

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Farai Chideya:

Yes, it is great to have you both back on. So let's break down the housing market. Interest rates were around 3% in January. Now I, last summer, bought my first and only house at that 3%, and now rates are about 7%. And so to put this in perspective today at the median asking price of about 500,000 means that the home's mortgage payment will have increased by $861 plus or minus, which is like, "Ah." Anyway, Bryan, what does this mean for people buying homes? Especially for Black and Latino potential buyers?

Bryan Greene:

Well, it means it's more challenging. It's certainly costs a lot more. And this is due to a number of factors. Of course, many are talking about interest rates today, but even going back to January, homes weren't very affordable for the average American and certainly not for people of color. And at NAR, we've been talking about this and attributing a lot of this to the underproduction of housing in this country for the last several decades.

So that in and of itself has pushed housing prices up significantly in recent years and continues to have a disproportionate impact on people of color. And so the interest rates are just compounding that issue.

Farai Chideya:

And Michelle, Black home ownership is lower than it was a decade ago and roughly as low as the 1960s when it was completely legal to have race-based discrimination in home buying. Can you explain what has shifted, or not shifted, for Black homeowners and homeowners of color?

Michelle Singletary:

Well, it's more like what has not shifted. So we have a number of things going on. First of all, we are still paid less, even when we have the similar qualifications. Our credit scores are still impacted by a number of things that are race based, because we think of credit scores as being neutral. But when a lot of the factors that go into those credit scores negatively impact Black and Latino families, that brings their scores down. And then you have still redlining going on.

Michelle Singletary:

And so we have the totality of a whole number of things still impacting Black households. And I think it's astounding that the rate of home ownership for Blacks is still the same when discrimination for housing was still allowed legally. And I think a lot of people don't want to face that things are still in place that contribute to this disparity, because we like to think we're post-racial, but we are not. There's still a lot of things baked into the system that we haven't been able to shake to increase that home ownership rate.

Farai Chideya:

Bryan, a lot of your work at Realtors seems to involve looking at issues of housing equity. In addition to the question of housing stock and how much housing is being built, how do you see the chess board? What could help move the needle on issues like this?

Bryan Greene:

Well, first I think is the acknowledgement of the problem. You can't really unbake race from this cake in terms of the current state of inequity. And you don't have to look too far back. I mean, just look at the predatory loans, just less than two decades ago. They were targeted to African American communities in great part. And there was this narrative for a bit, and you still hear it, where people blame the borrowers, or say the borrowers trying to get over, or they say that lenders were pushed to make loans to poorly qualified or unqualified African Americans or people of color. And we know that's not the case. We know that oftentimes these were abusive products that were targeted to these communities from the community that I grew up in a New York middle class, African American community where these were pedaled as home improvement loans and other refinance loans with really bad terms, often to elderly borrowers who are not sophisticated about the different loan products that were available at that time.

Bryan Greene:

So that robbed people of wealth, and even with that recent history, many people don't recognize the need to take some action to remedy it with a recognition that these were race based actions. So we need to look at loan products and approaches that remedy that. And now there are many who are talking about utilizing special purpose credit programs. These were programs that the 1970s Equal Credit Opportunity Act authorized. And HUD has also said that these are consistent with the Fair Housing Act, where you can design programs that address this history. Certainly FHA, which has been able to make loans with flexible underwriting criteria, is looking at further steps it can take. NAR and others have supported the reduction of the mortgage interest premium and the life of loan requirement. All requirements that make these loans currently more costly.

Bryan Greene:

And down payment assistance. There are lots of states and localities that have down payment assistance programs. There's nothing at the federal level, but more can be done to make consumers aware of these programs, to educate real estate agents on how better to utilize these programs. So these are a few things, but beyond that, we also need to look at underwriting overall and look at whether underwriting criteria that was adopted decades ago really makes sense in today's market. So we really have to stress test all the elements of underwriting to make sure it's fair and truly measures credit worthiness. Many people have been talking about how people's major payments like rent is not part of their credit profile. So now some of the government sponsored enterprises are looking at ways to better incorporate that in consideration of borrowers credit worthiness.

Farai Chideya:

Well, Michelle, there are different programs. I know that Washington, D.C. is a place where many Black homeowners were displaced as prices rose, and now it has this modest fund for first time Black homeowners. If you were looking to find out how to find lending programs, whether they involve race or not, that were good for you, how would you start your search?

Michelle Singletary:

Well, actually I would start with HUD. I'm a big believer in the HUD approved housing counseling agencies. I think they do an excellent job of assessing borrower's ability to be a homeowner. Now I say that because I'm a big believer in home ownership. I've actually owned a home since I was about 22. I only rented one year of my entire adult life, which spans a long time. Three houses later. And so what I like about what they do is that it's just not enough to say, "Give down payment assistance." We've got to look at the totality of the financial picture of the person, because what we don't want is to increase home ownership rates, then to see people being foreclosed out of those homes. And so when I work with folks, I tell them, "Go to a HUD approved agency. They look at everything. They look at your credit, they look at how you handle your budget, and then they help you find a lender and program that is appropriate for you."

Michelle Singletary:

But one of the first questions I ask people when they say, "I want to buy a home," is, "Do you have debt?" Because that is the leading reason why lots of people can't hold onto their homes. Because even if that mortgage payment looks affordable on paper, if there're other demands on people's money, not just debt, but family obligations, that puts demands on your funds. So you get a house, but then you have to help Grammy. And you got to help Peaches and you got to help a whole bunch of people, rightfully so, and that makes it difficult for you to hold onto that house. And so when we talk about increasing home ownerships, we've got to make sure that we are setting people up for success. So it's not enough just to have a down payment program. You've got to make sure that you teach people how to budget so that once people get in the homes, they can keep it and actually build up that equity over time that they can pass on to future generations.

Farai Chideya:

Tell Peaches to slow her role.

Bryan.

Bryan Greene:

And let me add to that, because there are other costs and expenses people have that folks may not take into account. And some of those are also borne disproportionately by people of color. So there have been some studies also that show that African Americans paying higher property taxes in urban communities as well as higher mortgage insurance and fees and homeowners insurance. And so those things of course matter. But even in terms of getting into home ownership, we have a study where we looked at successful home purchasers by race and African Americans are making all kinds of sacrifices that white Americans don't have to make in order to buy a home.

Bryan Greene:

And so all these factors add up. Even people who are successful in purchasing that home are sometimes buying trouble in the future because of past discrimination, economic circumstances that resulted from that, or the context that the surroundings in which they live, where they're paying these higher taxes and other fees.

Farai Chideya:

You're listening to Sippin' the Political Tea on Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. This week we're doing a special round table on the housing market with personal finance expert Michelle Singletary of The Washington Post and vice president of policy advocacy at the National Association of Realtors, Bryan Greene.

So Michelle, given higher levels of college debt and lower equity, any further thoughts?

Michelle Singletary:

Yeah, one thing that Bryan just talked about is that the higher price of home ownership for African Americans. So we tend to be in communities, people live where people they feel comfortable with. I live in a Black community in Prince George's County in Maryland. It's near my church, it's near my friends, but my property taxes are just crazy. Tag that with the fact that my home is not appreciating the same as if I were in a white neighborhood. If I picked up my house and moved to a white neighborhood, my house would probably be worth probably, if not half, of a hundred percent more. I mean, I'm just being real. And I wrote about this and someone said, "Well, you should just move to a white neighborhood." Well, why do I need to move to a white neighborhood to get what I feel is comfortable for me?

Michelle Singletary:

So you buy your home, it's not going to appreciate the same way. And so that impacts the equity that you have that you can then pass on to your generation. So it's like all this stuff piled on top of you. And I personally don't even like the way we qualify people for a home anyway. The formulas makes sense on paper, "What's your gross income? And then let's look at your debt." But none of us, unless you cheating IRS, is bringing home our gross income. And so when I help people qualify, when I tell them what I think they should afford a house, I said, "Forget that gross income number. Look at your net income every month against your debts and family obligations." Because if you live in a Black community, oftentimes the funding of the schools is not the same.

Michelle Singletary:

So many more families are sending their kids the private school. So you dump that onto their budget and you can see why you have a recipe for people having difficulty holding onto their home or just deciding, "I can't afford home ownership if I'm going to do all these other things for my family."

Bryan Greene:

And Michelle talked about less equity to pass on to future generations, but it's also less equity to tap for, say college education too, or for home improvement loans or the like. So those costs are also borne by African American home buyers.

Farai Chideya:

Absolutely. Well I want to go to some questions. We actually reached out on social media and got some questions from our listeners. And so Michelle, the question is, if you can afford to buy a house, and we've talked a lot about whether or not you can afford it and what you can do to afford it, should you buy one now?

Michelle Singletary:

I always answer that question this way; home ownership is right for you when it's right for you. There is not a perfect time. So let's just go back six months or a year when the interest rates were super low. People's like, "You got to buy a house right now," but if you don't have that income to stay in that house, because it's not enough to just have a house, can you also save for retirement? Can you also save to help send your kids to college without any debt? If you can't do all those things... Can you also save for the emergency fund? So all of those things are not lined up, even if interest rates is 0%, you may not be able to afford a house at that point. People feel like they need to jump in when they're ready. But to me it's like saying, "I can't swim, but should I just go ahead and jump into the pool? Because there's a whole bunch of lifeguards there." Well, they may not get to you.

Michelle Singletary:

So I just think that you look at your financial situation and if you can't do it right now or when the rates were low, you wait until you're in the financial position to handle a mortgage. And so what does that mean? That means you may have to make some compromises. Perhaps you can't get your dream house. Maybe you have to look at a less expensive house, look at a different neighborhood, or maybe even move to a different area, different state. So I'm not one of these people that says, "Once the rates come down, go in there, the housing price is going [inaudible 00:46:21] jump in there." Look at your own personal financial situation. And here's the test; "Can I get this house and still save for retirement, can I get this house and have cushioned in my budget for financial emergencies?"

Michelle Singletary:

If all of that lines up, then yes, it's okay for you to buy a house. But be careful about who you get your loan with because the loan servicer is very important. How are they going to handle any issues that come up, so that if you run into some financial situation, you want to be sure that you're with a company that has a history of helping and working with borrowers. These fly-by-night operations that maybe get their money from a pool of investors and they don't really care about... They just trying to sell a bunch of loans. You want to be careful about your business relationships, even if it means you pay a little bit more for that security. Now having said that, we know a lot of the big banks haven't always done what they're supposed to do, but just be careful about who you get your loan with. Even if it means that you might have to go to someone more established and pay a little bit more.

Farai Chideya:

So Bryan, you get the final thoughts. One thing that is on a lot of people's minds is are we possibly in a housing bubble? Are people going to see prices fall? You can't predict it, but a lot of people are trying to game out buy now, buy later. I don't know if that's on your mind or any final parting gifts for people thinking about buying?

Bryan Greene:

Well, I guess I'm going to end where I started, which is the housing supply problem. The housing under production in this country suggests that home prices are not going to drop. They may slow and we may see, and we're starting to see even right now, more inventory on the market. So there're more options, but housing's not becoming any more affordable. So we still are going to have to build more housing as a country. But then also we need to make sure that what we are building satisfies different income levels and we need different housing types. It doesn't have to be as dense as our urban areas, but we're going to need more housing in this country to keep up with population growth and we're going to have to keep building and find ways to create home ownership for the next generation.

Farai Chideya:

Well Bryan, thank you so much.

Bryan Greene:

Thank you.

Farai Chideya:

And Michelle, thank you so much.

Michelle Singletary:

Thank you.

Farai Chideya:

That was Michelle Singletary, who writes a syndicated personal finance column for The Washington Post. And she's written books including What to Do With Your Money When Crisis Hits and The 21 Day Financial Fast. And also Bryan Greene, a writer and vice president of policy advocacy at the National Association of Realtors.

Farai Chideya:

Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts. 

Farai Chideya:

Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm host and executive producer, Farai Chideya. Nina Spensley is also executive producer. 

Farai Chideya:

Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister and Traci Caldwell are our booking producers. Anoa Changa, Emily J. Daly and Steve Lack are our producers. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Kelsey Kudak is our fact checker.

Farai Chideya:

Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Lauren Schild and engineered by Adam Rooner, and Archie Moore.

Farai Chideya:

This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.

Farai Chideya:

It is also the last week of our senior producer, Bianca Martin, who is going off to help launch a new show. Bianca, you have been a treasure to work with, and here's a little tribute from the staff to you.

Dear Bianca, have such a wonderful journey through journalism. You have done so much for the Our Body Politic team, and I wish you all the best moving ahead. Cheers, Farai.

Speaker 14:

Thank you for your wonderful spirit, and the leadership, willingness and joy you've brought to the work. We so look forward to tracking your future, and so pleased we could be part of your past. OBP love.

Speaker 10:

Bianca Martin, you are a treasure and a talent, and I cannot wait to hear your next project.

Speaker 11:

Immense gratitude for all of the knowledge and expertise Bianca has brought this team. We're rooting for you in all that you do.

Speaker 12:

Bianca, thanks for the leadership. Thanks for the great vibes. Thanks for the sharing of your knowledge. You're going to be greatly missed.

Speaker 16:

Oh, there are so many things I'm going to miss about Bianca, but most importantly, I think I'll miss the way you lead with kindness, grace, and humor. Oh, it's been a pleasure laughing with you, and I hope you carry that joy with you to your next adventure. Best of luck.

Speaker 17:

A shout out to a wonderful, caring and enthusiastic senior producer. Bianca, know that you'll be sorely missed by the Our Body Politic team, but wishing you major success on your next exciting opportunity. Good luck. We'll miss you.

Archie:

Bianca, it's Archie. It's been a pleasure working with you. I'm going to miss you, but I know you're going to do amazing things. All the best.

Speaker 13:

Looking forward to seeing what you do next, Bianca. Really appreciate your leadership over the past few weeks. Even though it's been a short time, I've appreciated the way in which that you have shared your knowledge and resources.

Traci:

Hi Bianca, this is Tracy. I wish you much success in your next venture. Good luck and take care.

Speaker 8:

Bianca, thank you so much for all of your hard work, your lively energy, and wishing you all the best in your next adventure. And most importantly, keep feeling pumpkin.