On this episode of Our Body Politic, guest host Hagar Chemali, Creator and Host of Oh My World! talks with SiriusXM Host and MSNBC columnist Nayyera Haq and Global Opinions Editor for The Washington Post, Karen Attiah, about the ongoing Israel-Hamas conflict. We round out the show with a conversation between host Farai Chideya and author Roxane Gay about her new collection of essays, Opinions: A Decade of Arguments, Criticism, and Minding Other People’s Business.”
Hagar Chemali [00:00:04] Hi, folks. We're so glad you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you haven't yet, remember to follow this podcast on your podcatcher of choice. Like Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have time, please leave us a review. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. Here's what one of you had to say. My favorite news podcast, The wide variety of news covered alongside recurring segments. Very much feels like actually flipping through a newspaper for a good overview of what's going on. And importantly, the strong focus on factual reporting with minimal spin is so helpful and refreshing. Thank you so much to Farai Chideya for making it. Thank you so much for this review. We're really glad you enjoyed the show. You can also reach out to us on Instagram and X @OurBodyPolitic where you can sign up for our newsletter. Just click on the link in the bio. We're here for you with you and because of you, so keep letting us know what's on your mind. And thanks for listening.
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Hagar Chemali, creator and host of Oh My World on YouTube sitting in for Farai Chideya. We're kicking off the show with another installment of our sipping the political t roundtable. This time on international politics. Of course, the world has been watching the crisis unfold in Gaza after a surprise terrorist attack by Hamas in Israel on October 7th. Following that, the Israeli military began striking Gaza and imposed a siege. As the humanitarian crisis in Gaza deepens, international and domestic tensions are running high. Joining me this week to unpack it all is Nayyera Haq MSNBC columnist and Sirius XM host. Thanks for being here, Nayyera.
Nayyera Haq [00:01:47] Great to be with you.
Hagar Chemali [00:01:49] And I'm also joined by Karen Attiah, opinion columnist for The Washington Post. Welcome back, Karen.
Karen Attiah [00:01:55] It's good to be here. Thank you so much.
Hagar Chemali [00:01:57] So much has unfolded just in the last couple of weeks, as I know you both have seen. Nayyera, Let's start with you. How have global governments reacted to what happened in Israel and now toward the violence between Israel and Hamas?
Nayyera Haq [00:02:10] Not well, and here's why I say it as issuing statements of support for one party or another. It's not really much of a reaction that changes reality for people on the ground. You have the United States, in its traditional manner, supporting Israel, which has been a choice the U.S. government has made over the course of the existence of Israel. But having moved from a Biden administration statement issuing full throated support for Israel on the day of the attack to one week later issuing statements to warn against collateral damage, to saying things like Israel should not use this as an opportunity for collective punishment. Those are statements, right, that that is what countries can do at the minimum. But that is not translate into changing the reality or the calculus on the ground. You have Iran using this as an opportunity to leverage their connection with Hamas, to continue to sow chaos among the allies in the Middle East, which had been up until this point, the United States, Israel, Egypt, Jordan. Those are the countries that have recognized the existence of Israel and supported it militarily and humanitarian wise. And Saudi Arabia, which had come into the picture several months ago as a potential ally for Israel, and the Saudis proving that they are far more interested in their own self-interest and their own regime maintenance. And I say that because they went from one week wanting to engage Israel diplomatically and change their current position to walking away from that and now catering to what is the other piece of the puzzle, which is Muslim majority countries sentiment. And I say that very specifically of catering to sentiment, because none of that translates to actually being pro-Palestinian. Each of these countries that I've mentioned, the United States, Iran and Saudi Arabia, have for the last decade or so, washed their hands clean of actually helping the Palestinian people figure out a two state solution. And they have deferred to the strength and the regime of Netanyahu, who even domestically has a lot of challenges maintaining a ruling coalition. And over the course of a nearly 20 year career in charge of Israel, has proven to be somebody who does not want to see the existence of a Palestinian state. So I say not much because the other countries that have power in the region have not used it to actually help the Palestinian people up until this point.
Hagar Chemali [00:04:54] And, Karen, I'm hoping you could talk about the broader public opinion. How do you see attitudes shifting here and globally over the last few weeks since the since the terrorist attack and then the ensuing violence?
Karen Attiah [00:05:07] I've been watching the public sentiment, the online discourse, the social media discourse, the media discourse. And, you know, of course, when when the attacks happened, the horrific attacks happened on October 7th, there was plenty of shock and outrage and condemnation of what Hamas had done. At the same time, we also saw a huge public, I think, outpouring of support, particularly on social media for Palestinians. And I think what we've been seeing is a is a bit of the challenging of not only, you know, of course, militarily the security of Israel, but also what's been penetrated for a lot of people around the world, for a lot of Jewish friends that I've spoken to, Israeli friends, is this idea of Israel as being an impenetrable security. Apparatus, and that was that was pierced very deeply on October seven. I think what we are seeing is over the last few years, more awareness, frankly, of the Palestinian situation, more awareness of what plenty of people would see as a morally unjust and illegal occupation. And so what I've been monitoring is the protests that are happening around the world, the pushback against those protests, the rhetorical discourse. And I think what a lot of people are wondering is, so when it comes to Israel's response to what happened on October 7th, I think the question on people's minds is a disproportionate response. And people are using the word, frankly, genocide to describe the evacuation order of a million people in Gaza. We understand and know that Gaza is densely populated. And so it's this fundamental question is the heavy civilian Palestinian casualties and violations of international law, including forced evacuations, such is this a warranted response to those attacks? And I think those words, those strong words like ethnic cleansing, like genocide, this is something, at least for me, is watching this conflict for for a while and watching sort of language and discourse on what's allowed. This feels new.
Nayyera Haq [00:07:34] And we're hearing it. Hagar in a new way from a younger generation of policymakers, as well as Jewish community members. I was talking to a dear friend who is a political reporter and is with a Jewish family, and we were talking about the psychic damage that two things have done that feel very different from the last, say, 30 years of covering and talking about this conflict. One, the keen awareness of anti-Semitism and how it motivates people and countries that that is something that has been acknowledged and recognized but is really coming forward in an ugly way right now. But the second piece being that being Jewish does not mean unequivocal support for whatever the Israeli government decides. And I find that in a much younger generation, talking about how this horrific attack does not equate do something horrible in return, and that being done in the name of a community that particularly in Israel, does not feel like it is represented by its decision makers. So I equate that with how people might see a Trump administration react to an attack on U.S. soil and me not necessarily agreeing with what my country's leaders are doing. So there is a diversity of opinion that is being recognized but is also being deeply felt in a way that is challenging because this is newer for anybody under the age of, I'd say 45. And so this is this is a moment that people will remember about their own political, national and religious identity.
Hagar Chemali [00:09:24] You know, you mentioned the the point about it being newer. This is the fifth round of violence between Israel and Gaza since Hamas took over in 2006. And it's taken on, as you said, it kind of it's just it's different this round. It's newer to a lot. And I want to talk about the geopolitical implications of that. So, Nayyera, if you could talk about what the chances are of a significantly expanded conflict. So how do you see things unfolding in the region, for example, including as it relates to humanitarian aid or other efforts?
Nayyera Haq [00:09:58] This is where the diplomacy really matters. And even though there was a sense of trying to move past this conflict and create deals between Israel and other partners in the Gulf, like the United Arab Emirates or the Saudis, this points out that the Palestinian problem and I say that in air quotes. Until that is addressed head on, you will find flare ups like this. Hamas and Iran will use that rhetoric to their advantage. So the diplomacy of having the secretary of state sitting in the region is helpful, reminding both in real terms, Israel partners, as well as folks in Egypt and elsewhere, that there is a humanitarian piece of this that needs to continue. Hezbollah will look for an opportunity here. Clearly, the Israeli military was taken off guard. But I've talked to folks who are now deployed in the north, and while they are engaging in some cross-fire, the expectation is that having. Israel on alert is going to deter folks who would otherwise try to take advantage of this chaos. That said, for anybody who was born after 911, there is a different sense of how the world should work. It is a very practical way of looking at the power that countries have. They no longer believe that the United States can solve everything. In fact, the post 911 generation believes the United States has created a lot of problems on the world stage. So that has also translated into a generation that is very connected, is seeing in their phones every day war and conflict in the worst ways in a way that was not available even ten years ago. And that generation now has power. They have voting power, they have consumer power, they are parents. And that is going to, I think, change how each of us connect with our leaders and what we expect to be done in our name.
Karen Attiah [00:12:01] The idea that, you know, not only do we have a sort of mass domestically in that situation, but also our ability to even function very normally as a government under the shutdown is something that I think also, you know, just calls into question even the limits of our power, like Meyer said. But I think also there's there's the part of this in terms of our, again, our moral and rhetorical response to this that especially I think younger people are are watching. And I think especially as the United States in general becomes more diverse in general. Demographics are changing. And in general there is a heightened awareness of the world through social media, through 24 hour cable news networks. There are different acts being made of what we do with with the US power right now. And I've been watching again the discourse and seeing people in America in particular wanting us to basically apply the same moral standards that we do across the board to other allies. Right. So people are asking, well, why? Why is it that we stood with Ukraine with the Russian invasion? Right. And yet the Palestinian cause is not seen in the same way people are, you know, questioning why, you know, flags and sympathy and support is being shown for one side, perhaps, and not another. And I think also, you know, sadly, you know, we have to to look at the how this is affecting even our social and demographic sort of politics right now. And, you know, we talk about 911, 911 has been invoked a lot to talk about Israel's response. Right. And I find that as someone who grew up, I was 15 when 911 happened, saw and lived through our disproportionate response and frankly, saw how it cast Islamophobia and suspicion, frankly, on people perceived to be Arab and Muslim. And so, you know, to see already that there have been reports of violence, both anti-Semitic violence and Islamophobic violence. And I think a lot of Americans, we're also kind of concerned for our own social fabric and how, again, this is inflamed so, so much here. So I think we're also looking for our leaders in general and our media, frankly. This, again, calls into question all those all those years of stoking so much of the flames, frankly, of xenophobia, of racism, of Islamophobia, of anti-Semitism, because now it's having very real world effects. So it's it's really it really goes very deeply, sadly, to even here in America, prejudices and and quote unquote, it's a wake. It's a sort of sense of, sadly, tribalism here thousands of miles away from the battlefront.
Hagar Chemali [00:15:09] You know, you bring up a very important point, and that's the question of the role of narrative in situations like this. And you mentioned, as you said, there has been a significant rise in both Islamophobia and anti-Semitic attacks, threats and so on here all over the world as well. Nayyera, you teach a course on narrative and diplomacy and war, and I wondering if you could comment as well on what Karen mentioned on this. How important is narrative here and and how can we how can perhaps the U.S. government or others lead on this to ensure that that hate crime doesn't increase or that these that Islamophobia and anti-Semitism doesn't decrease either?
Nayyera Haq [00:15:52] To underscore what Karen already talked about, and I teach this class to undergrads at Syracuse University and students who are interested in global of. AYRES And so much of what I have been able to talk about has been informed by their perspectives. Being 21 years old and seeing how the world has worked. Vietnam was something I had to break down for them, and their question immediately was, how did you guys fall for all of this with the Iraq war? Right. So there's a sense of recognizing that the last 40 years of history and where we are versus where this next generation is their perspective and it isn't necessarily translated into policy decisions. The narrative coming out of 911 is not one of success. When you look at the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq on the front end. It was a deeply emotional response and effort to make regime change happen. And we are indeed seeing in the United States, people say things like turn Gaza into a parking lot and we see people in Israel, the victims, the families of victims saying, don't do this in my name. So there's a sense of nuance we lose in our rhetoric here in the United States that people in the region deeply understand and are aware of. The 911 analogy, while very powerful, doesn't really translate point for point to what happened in Israel. And I say this because 911 was unthinkable, unimaginable, something the United States had never even considered or prepared for the difference with Israel. Yes, they have lost more people in the attack than we had lost in 911, and proportionately it is more significant. But Israel technically prepares for this. This is why the United States has supported so much military investment, because Israel is surrounded by countries that do not think it should exist. That's what the challenges for the people in that country right now is how their leadership, when national security is the number one issue. People vote on how their leadership failed to prepare and anticipate something like this. So consequences of that will be more far reaching than we understand right now. In that sense of the United States being a backer of a strong democracy that can protect itself, people will not believe that about the United States capabilities overseas. And we already have a domestic public that does not believe that about the United States at home.
Hagar Chemali [00:18:37] That's Nayyera Haq, Sirius XM host and MSNBC columnist. Thank you for joining us today.
Nayyera Haq [00:18:43] Thank you for having me.
Hagar Chemali [00:18:44] And Karen Attiah, opinions columnist for the Washington Post and an Our Body Politic contributor and guest host. Thank you so much, karen. I'm really looking forward to hearing your next show as guest host.
Karen Attiah - Thank you.
Hagar Chemali - We want to acknowledge that this is a developing story that many of our listeners are deeply affected by and feel passionately about. You can let us know what's on your mind by leaving us a voicemail at 9293537006. That's 9293537006. Or share with us on Instagram and X. At Our Body Politic. With all that's happening, it's important to take time to rest and reflect. So we turn next to celebrated writer Roxane Gay in conversation with Our Body Politic creator and host Farai Chideya. Let's listen.
Farai Chideya [00:19:52] Roxane Gay is out with a new book, Opinions: A Decade of Arguments, Criticism and Minding Other People's Business. The collection of essays brings together her previously published work from The Guardian, The New York Times and other publications from the past decade. Her opinions ranged from Love and The Bachelor franchise to Toni Morrison to sexual assault. Nothing goes untouched. She's also the Gloria Steinem Endowed Chair In Media, Culture and Feminist Studies at Rutgers, contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and author of several books. She joins me now to talk about her latest book and why cultural criticism is deeply needed. Roxane, with one N, thank you so much for joining us on Our Body Politic.
Roxane Gay [00:20:33] Thank you so much for having me, Farai. It's a pleasure to be here.
Farai Chideya [00:20:37] So I saw you recently at a relative's big day.
[HORNS PLAY]
There were little enamel pins with 30 on it. 30 is the number of presidents that Harvard University has had. And there was for the inauguration of the newest one, Claudine Gay, who is part of your family. Can you first of all, tell me a little bit about Claudine, because we're going to talk a lot about you and what it was like to be there that day. And I got to meet some of your other family.
Roxane Gay [00:21:12] It was wonderful to be there that day because it was such a big deal that this amazing woman was able to succeed in an environment where we are often not expected to thrive. And she has done so for more than a decade, and she's incredibly qualified. She is the right person for the job. And so to see the institution recognize that was really quite wonderful. And to see her on that stage and to see what her peers think of her was really gratifying. And I was incredibly proud. And it was just a very special day. And we were able to bring my nieces and so it was great for them to see what's possible.
Farai Chideya [00:22:00] It was a soggy day. I like it took like two days for my shoes to dry out, but it was so worth it. I was there with some of my friends from Adams House. I went to Harvard undergrad and I actually had a great time, but it wasn't the greatest time for the university in the sense that the English department, which was I was studying English, was in a transition and had a great leader, Robert Kiley, through whom I met Toni Morrison. But also there was a lot of upheaval about who was getting tenure and who wasn't. There was a lot of upheaval about the Black Studies Department. I wrote an article for Newsweek where I pointed out that Black students were marching about the meltdown of the Black Studies Department, and then they hired Skip Gates. So my former boss says that I'm responsible for getting Skip Gates hired. I do not know that that's the case, but I will say that my boss said that about me. So, you.
Roxane Gay [00:22:52] Know.
Farai Chideya [00:22:54] I've covered many things and Harvard means a lot to me. But Harvard has problems with race, gender and all sorts of things. But it was very moving that there was a Black and native woman who spoke during the inauguration about Harvard's history with Native Americans, which is not surprisingly, not great. And she was basically like, We're still here after everything that's happened. We are still representing. And sometimes that's what life feels like to me in middle age. Like we're still here. It hasn't all been good. It hasn't all been bad, but we are still standing. Does that resonate with you?
Roxane Gay [00:23:30] Yes. I think that one of the most important things to recognize, particularly in marginalized populations, is that we are still here. We haven't been eradicated. And despite, in many instances, overwhelming odds, we still managed to do the kinds of things that we aspire to. I find that to be incredibly interesting and powerful. And, you know, no institution is perfect. I think most institutions have problems and some institutions have more problems than others. But the opening speaker, she read Harvard for Filth, and I was amazing. Yeah, I would exactly go and tell them about themselves. And she did not hold back. And I think that took a lot of courage.
Farai Chideya [00:24:17] Let's listen to a clip from that speech from Elizabeth Solomon, the director of administration at Harvard School of Public Health, an elder of the Massachusetts tribe at punk park.
Roxane Gay [00:24:27] For a brief moment in the 1600s, Harvard held the promise and possibility of engendering a true collaborative process in building a society that could have served all who live here. Unfortunately, the university joined others who contributed both actively and implicitly to this country's long history of the displacement of native peoples from their homelands, the enslavement of Black and indigenous peoples, and the attempt to systematically destroy indigenous cultures. But it is my hope that Harvard can still fulfill that century long deferred promise. Perhaps this has already begun with Harvard's introspective examination of its role in slavery and the installation of a Black woman as its newest president.
Farai Chideya [00:25:25] Well, speaking of campuses, I wanted to start with your essay, The Seduction of Safety on Campus and Beyond. And at Our Body Politic, we really have developed a culture in our newsroom that I'm very proud of, which is to be informed and passionate and not to be trapped in conceptions of yourself, but to be informed by lived experience as well as book learning. And as I was listening to you read this essay, The Seduction of Safety on Campus and Beyond, which touches on trigger warnings, etc. I thought of a class. It was my very last class I taught at NYU. I taught there for four years in the journalism department, and I came up with the format of teaching a multimedia class and having a different topic each semester. So the basic frame was the same. So one time it was arts reporting, you know. But I did race relations as my very last class, and I had a guy who was going on 30 who had been in the Israeli Special Forces for five years. He was an undergrad, an 18 year old white woman from the South and a former undocumented immigrant who came here from Colombia at the age of six and who is of Lebanese descent. And we had the most robust discussions. But I remember saying at the beginning, there will be no trigger warnings in this class because this whole class is a trigger. And if you can't deal with that, you should not take this class. But I walked everyone through being in a space where we could all bring our lived experience and all of the cultural references into conversation. What the heck is happening, Roxanne, with pedagogy in terms of both how people want to restrict access to information and how people contextualized information?
Roxane Gay [00:27:18] Well, it really depends. I mean, I think it varies from one instructor to the next, because I think all of us who teach have different attitudes toward trigger warnings. You know, the problem with trigger warnings and I've written about this a few times in a few different places, is that you don't know what's going to trigger who. And so I think you get into a bit of an intellectual quagmire when you decide, Oh, I'm going to give you a trigger warning for this thing, which a assumes that your audience is too fragile to cope, and also which suggests that to talk about certain issues means that they are inherently fraught. And that's not the case. And I think that it reduces the importance of the kinds of issues that we tend to want to explore, whether it's race and gender, sexuality, global politics, American politics. You know, all of these are important issues and they may have elements that are troubling, but life is troubling and we can't really look away. And I respect that Some people need trigger warnings. I do. But we have to be individually responsible for how we manage our mental health and for how we manage the things that we know or we suspect might trigger us. And I also feel like I prepare my students for the kinds of things that we're going to read. They're never going to walk into a novel or an essay and be surprised by something that would be challenging. They're going to know and then they can proceed accordingly.
Farai Chideya [00:29:05] Yeah, it seems to me I know this is a little bit of a stretch metaphor, but I was listening to a discussion of air hallucinations. When an I invent something that is wrong, you know, instead of a synthesis that is factual, it's called a hallucination. And basically there's this theory that as more as there's more air generated content, I could go into a death spiral of referring to its own hallucinations and then hallucinating more. And it sort of strikes me that to have pedagogy without being informed is like air hallucinations. And this is coming up because at this point, certain people in this country want to ban essential knowledge. And if teachers don't know what they're talking about, they can't help students can.
Roxane Gay [00:29:53] They know they can't, but students can help themselves. True. I think that it's important to recognize that teachers are facilitators and hopefully we encourage our students to think for themselves. And in those instances where teachers are not up to the task of working with their students through difficult subject matter, hopefully what they've gotten from the entire college experience to that point is what to do if they don't have any guide. It's our leadership. And I think that we should trust students more. They are incredibly capable and they are incredibly open most of the time, and I try to embrace that as much as I can. And when I see teachers who maybe aren't up to the task, it's a shame. But I do trust our students.
Farai Chideya [00:30:47] Yeah. Well, thank you for letting me go down that rabbit hole. I loved some parts of teaching. I didn't like other parts of teaching, mainly dealing with academic politics, which is always what people complain about. But I have met so many incredible people who I now consider friends who were students of mine, as well as previously in my life, having made friends with people who were teachers of mine. So. Cheers. Cheers for all of that. And of course, you were at Rutgers holding down the fort with the Gloria Steinem endowed chair in media. And what strikes me like listening to you read your book, is that your language is so precise, and I believe your Ph.D. is in rhetoric. Is that right?
Roxane Gay [00:31:28] Yes. Rhetoric and technical communication.
Farai Chideya [00:31:30] Yep. How do you know when you're done with a piece of writing?
Roxane Gay [00:31:33] I don't know that. I always know when I come to the end, but in general, it's when I think I've said everything that needs to be said and not too much, because I think it's important to trust readers. And I don't think that we have to spoon feed them. I do think that readers are able to draw their own conclusions from the kinds of things that we put on the page. And so it's an instinctual thing. It's a gut feeling when I've reached the end and where I feel like this is all I have to say at this time on this topic.
Farai Chideya [00:32:04] Yeah. So could you read the last four paragraphs of your first opinion from the book? Tragedy plays on an infinite loop.
Roxane Gay [00:32:14] Yes. In St Louis, Kazeem Powell was also killed by a police officer in broad daylight. The police said that he had a knife raised over his head. But in a video released on Wednesday, we see that though Powell was agitated and demanding shoot me, he was several feet away from the police officers. And then in the video on YouTube, there is the staccato of 12 gunshots. The entire tragedy became spectacle because a passer by was filming the incident before, during and after he was armed with his cell phone. He was primed for a spectacle because this is the culture we have, right? One in which we are perpetually ready to bear witness, even if we do not know in advance what we will bear witness to. I got everything on tape, says the man with his cell phone over and over and over.
CLIP: I got everything on tape. I got everything on tape.
Roxane Gay - In the last minutes of the video of the killing of Kazeem Powell, several other witnesses are seen holding their cell phones up so that they, too, so that we, too, might have a piece of the testimony. No matter where we are, no matter who we are, we can be part of the spectacle. Far too few of us question whether or not we should be.
Farai Chideya [00:33:31] I want to just sit with that for a second. I stopped watching videos of people being killed. I just don't do it. But I'm also grateful that people document at the right times for the right reasons. But it's incredibly complicated, both the documenting and the consuming. Now that we know that there's routinely human rights violations all over the place, and sometimes you can capture them in real time and transmit them even in real time, how do we find a moral axis around this? I want you to solve all my problems, Roxanne.
Roxane Gay [00:34:06] I'll do my best. But I want us to live in a world where we don't need to bear witness because there are no atrocities for us to bear witness to. But I suppose that's asking for too much. And so it's hard to determine what we should do, because before cell phones, we knew these things were happening. But it was only the person's word. Hmm. And nobody ever believes that the police are this bad. And yet now we know. We've seen the evidence over and over and over again. So I think it's important that if and when we see brutality in any form, it's good to document it. But I also think that we have to then decide what we do with that evidence. It should exist. I think it should be made available. But I also think that we don't have to watch every video, and I certainly do not. Especially now, ten years on from when I first wrote that essay. I've seen it before. I've seen it, and now it's just overwhelming to see the ongoing and persistent desecration of Black people and in such senseless ways. It's infuriating to see law enforcement decide that they get to be judge, jury and executioner oftentimes over offenses that would result in a fine if that, and police take it upon themselves to deal with it on the spot. Because really what we're talking about is white man's fear. Really, that's the core issue that we need to address. Why are they so afraid? And if they're so afraid? Why are they in law enforcement?
Farai Chideya [00:35:45] Yeah. And your piece that we just heard from you was published in The Guardian in August of 2014 after the murder of Michael Brown in Ferguson. You also talk a lot about how the manning of Black boys, when they are victims and the boying of white men when they are perpetrators. I mean, it's just brilliant. I, I don't want to go down that rabbit hole because there's other rabbit holes I want to go down. But I just want to point out that that stuff is brilliant.
Roxane Gay [00:36:13] Thank you.
Farai Chideya [00:36:13] How did you pick the seven sections that you divided this book into?
Roxane Gay [00:36:18] Well, I started just looking at everything I had written in recent years, and then I realized I had created a body of work over the past decade that was all centered on opinions. And so I found these very broad categories amongst the work. And the reality is that some of the pieces can fit in multiple categories, and that's okay. The categories were just a way of creating a bit of structure to the manuscript so that you didn't just have 40 essays without some kind of context. And, you know, some of the categories were, of course, much easier than others. Like for the culture was really straight Cultural criticism. Book reviews, reviews of a film franchise television show are not even reviews per se, but engagement of some kind with those things. And then, of course, there were the broader categories like race and gender and things like that, where the essays were about many things. But at the core they're about race or gender or sexuality or, you know, any of the other categories.
Farai Chideya [00:37:22] Yeah, Yeah. One of your categories has to do with civic life, civic responsibility. And you start out sort of optimistically with a 2016 piece Voting With My Head And Heart about then presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. You end with the essay, I'm Shattered, But I'm Ready To Fight where you reflected on the four years after 2016. Now we're almost four years plus with another election on the horizon. And so how do you read your own work in retrospect?
Roxane Gay [00:37:52] Well, I recognize that we have made very little progress, which is deeply troubling. I recognize that we are on the precipice of electing a tyrant again, one who may well be convicted of a crime by that point. And you have to wonder what will it take for this country to learn the necessary lessons? And I certainly do not have an answer for that. I do hope that we can overcome our lesser instincts in 2024 and do the right thing. I also hope that we can have some very honest conversations amongst ourselves on the left about why we continue to submit to a jarring autocracy and why we wish. Fuze to really do what is necessary to get some younger people running for office. I mean, not running, they're already running, but to elevate some of these younger people. And that's not being discriminatory toward older people. But when the candidates on both sides of the aisle are in their late seventies or early eighties, like perhaps we should recognize that that's a problem. So I'm thinking about all of that. As I look back on those essays.
Farai Chideya [00:39:02] I read obsessively about polling and and what are the number one things in polls and focus groups people are like, what is up with the gerontocracy thing? You know what I mean? I love my elders. You know, I am a caregiver for an elder. My oldest friend is Betty Reid Soskin, who's 102 years old. But I think that the people in my life who are elders are always people who hold space for intergenerational leadership. And I think there is an ossification of our idea of leadership, or at least who people are willing to fund to be leaders, which is another whole conversation.
Roxane Gay [00:39:36] Correct. And I think that there's lots of opportunity for intergenerational leadership, but that's not what we have right now in any way, shape or form. And when you see people waiting in the wings who are qualified, who are interesting, who I think have some interesting politics, some don't, of course, I just wonder why do people in power hold on to it for so long? I think that when you die in office and it's not because of an accident or illness when you die in office simply because you are that old and you decided not to retire. And I'm not referring to anyone specifically. I'm just saying in general, that's a failure. That's a failure when you don't retire, when you don't step aside, when you don't say, I've had enough, and this is why term limits matter. And if we have term limits for the president, we should certainly have term limits for the people who serve in Congress.
Farai Chideya [00:40:36] I would say my little twist on that is I do care about fitness, but trotting along through those many themes that you have in this book, you have a section of essays titled for the Cultural, the biggest section of the book. And there's this piece, Why the Beach Is a Bummer, which is about the fantasy of going to the beach versus the reality. And in that essay, you also claim, I am not an animal person. No, I do not want to pet your dog. But there's also some being on this planet named Maximus Toretto Blueberry Millman Gay. Please explain.
Roxane Gay [00:41:14] Well, people change. I'm not I'm I'm not an animal person in any way, shape or form. That's just not for me. However, I got married, am I? Well, I met my wife five years ago. We got married three years ago, and she's an animal lover. It's very intense. So she you know, when you meet the right person, you're willing to embrace everything about who they are. And so I decided, even though I could do without pets, it's fine. And she had two cats that she got a week before we met. So I just thought, okay, we're going to have these cats and we're just going to make it work. And then she used to have two dogs. She had two dogs for about 15 or 16 years, and they died about six months before we met. So when we met, she said she wasn't ready for a dog. And I said, Oh, good, because I will never be ready. But I noticed her talking about dogs more and more. And every time she saw a dog on the street and she still does this, she was like doggy! and so excited. And so I thought, well, let me look into what this could be. And so I started researching and because that's what I do. And then I got her a dog for her birthday three years ago. I told her I was getting her the dog for her birthday. I didn't just like foist it upon her and it turns out was really great. He's adorable and he's super cute and he's really small.
Farai Chideya [00:42:38] And yes, the minimus Maximus.
Roxane Gay [00:42:41] Yes. But he has a very big personality and he barks like a big dog and he thinks he's a big dog and he loves to… there's a huge Saint Bernard on our block when we're in New York. And he loves this dog. And this dog weighs literally 150, 160 more pounds than him. And he thinks that they're peers. And big dogs, I have found and generally know their size and they know that little dogs don't. And he's so gentle with Max. It's really just lovely to see. And so I'm a I'm a Max person now, I suppose.
Farai Chideya [00:43:16] I love it. I absolutely love it , a total cutie. So in for the culture, you have the Fast and Furious franchise, The Bachelor, cooking reality shows and collecting fine art. What ties together your cultural pursuits?
Roxane Gay [00:43:32] Things that make me curious. Things that hold my attention. I am fairly omnivorous in my interests, cultural and otherwise. And I also believe that creativity exists on a spectrum. And I don't know that any of us are served by designations like highbrow and lowbrow. I think it's all connected, and the kinds of things that we see in visual art can also be reflected in theater and can also be reflected in television. They're just reflected in different ways. And so when I'm writing cultural criticism, I have that in mind, and I'm just looking at what does this piece of creativity, this piece of art say about where we are as a culture? I find that question to be endlessly interesting. I find the ways that creative people answer that question to be interesting, sometimes flawed, sometimes a hot mess. And so yeah.
Farai Chideya [00:44:28] Yeah, absolutely. And the last section of the book is Solicited Advice. It includes excerpts from an advice column at the New York Times, which we will get to in a bit. But what do you like about advice columns generally?
Roxane Gay [00:44:42] Well, for one, it's really satisfying in a sort of petty way to see the problems of other people and just be like, Wow, wow, what I've got going on perhaps isn't so bad. And it's just also interesting to see the kinds of, you know, the reality is that a lot of people make their letters up when they send them in, but I'm still always interested in the kinds of problems people have. Some of them are very poignant, some of them are amusing, some of them are strange, and some of them are like, Wow, girl, you need to leave him immediately. And so there's just something satisfying about reading about the problems of others.
Farai Chideya [00:45:23] I love your column, and I also love Kwame Anthony Appiah's column, The Ethicist from The New York Times. And I think it's interesting that you're both academics and authors writing advice columns that theoretically anyone could write or no one could write. But it's really interesting to see that cross-pollination of the space, you know. But let's turn to your column. Since 2010 of you've been writing the work advice column for the Times Work Friend: Practical, Tactical Advice on the Office, Money, Careers And Work Life Balance. So what makes you want to write about work and what do you get from writing about work?
Roxane Gay [00:46:00] You know, I think it was more writing advice, which I enjoy, and this happened to be the venue in which I could do it. And the reality is that we spent a great deal of our lives at work. So much happens in the professional sphere. And so the questions that people ask about their work lives are often very existential. And, you know, am I doing the right thing with my life? Does it ever get better? Should I quit my job? Yes. Always. The answer is always. You're asking the question. The answer is yes. And so I just was thinking about all of that when I agreed to do the column. And it's been really interesting. I was only supposed to do it for 13 installments and I am about to file my 80th. So sometimes working.
Farai Chideya [00:46:47] Absolutely. You know, I love it. But corporations have scaled back DIY inclusion efforts. You know, there's this kind of running gunfight between Republican and Democratic attorneys general in discussing how corporations should proceed with this stuff. How do you think this may affect the kinds of things that you get to write about in the future? The Supreme Court decision on affirmative action in colleges and whether and how it rolls into the corporate space.
Roxane Gay [00:47:14] It will definitely roll into the corporate space. We've already seen it rolling into the corporate space as corporations decide they no longer need the AEI employees and officers and executives. So I think we're going to see what companies really value when they don't have to value diversity. So I don't know how things are going to proceed. I am not particularly optimistic about it, but I do know that what we are going to see a lot of is people realizing that affirmative action was not the barrier between them in their dreams. Mm hmm.
Farai Chideya [00:47:54] Yeah.
Roxane Gay [00:47:54] And that's going to be satisfying.
Farai Chideya [00:47:57] Yeah, exactly. Well, Roxane Gay, author and contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, thank you for joining us today.
Roxane Gay [00:48:05] Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Hagar Chemali [00:48:08] Want to hear more? You can catch the extended version of that conversation on our podcast. Just find Our Body Politic wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcasts. We'd also like to invite you to sign up for our newsletter where we share additional insights and resources for the OBP. Community. Check us out on Instagram and X @OurBodyPolitic and click the link in our bio.
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. I'm today’s host Hagar Chemali. Farai Chideya, Nina Spensley and Shanta Covington are executive producers. Emily J. Daly is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booking producer. Andrea Asuaje, Ann Marie Awad, Natyna Bean, Morgan Givens, Emily Ho and Monica Morales Garcia are our producers. Nicole Pasulka is our fact checker. Our associate producer is David Escobar. Our technical director is Mike Garth.
This program is produced with support from the Luce Foundation, Open Society Foundation, Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, The Pop Culture Collaborative, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.