This week Boston Globe senior op-ed writer Kimberly Atkins Stohr joins Farai to discuss the latest findings - and potential government involvement - in the January 6 insurrection investigation. Our host then speaks candidly with OBP senior producer Bianca Martin about Farai’s 30 year journey as a field reporter who focuses on the challenges to democracy and society, and who predicted the 2021 political violence. Their conversation leads us back 12 years to Farai’s radio documentary “Pop and Politics Radio.” Traveling hundreds of miles through Arizona during the 2010 midterm election, Farai and the documentary producers saw how many of today’s political battles began to take shape, laying groundwork for the 2021 insurrection.
Farai Chideya:
Hi folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting the show, if you are able. You can find out more at ourbodypolitic.com/donate. We are here for you, with you, and because of you. Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic, I'm Farai Chideya. New details continue to be revealed by reporters and sources, leaking tapes and documents about the January 6th insurrection at the US capital. It was framed as an independent movement, but its ties to politicians from the Trump administration and sitting members of Congress are becoming clearer. In focus the over 2000 texts of former white house, chief of staff, Mark Meadows that he submitted to the US house of representatives select committee. The messages reveal a cadre of Trump's inner circle and supporters, including several Republican lawmakers who were in favor of overturning the election that fateful day. Joining me now to discuss the latest with the investigation into January 6th is Boston globe senior opinion writer, an inaugural columnist for The Emancipator, Kimberly Atkins Stohr. Welcome Kimberly.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. I am really glad to be here with you. And you recently hosted an episode of the public radio show On Point, about the investigations into the insurrection and what's going on. So let's start with democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin. He's a member of the house select committee investigating January 6th. And he has said that public hearings are going to start in June and the committee will aim to release a report about the investigation at the end of summer or early fall. They have interviewed over 800 witnesses, including Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, VP Mike Pence's chief of staff. So can you walk us through what we are building up to, in terms of what these hearings might mean?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
So I think the hearings, once they begin, will become the public face of what this very intense, very just voluminous investigation has been. Keep in mind, leading up to this. They have interviewed, in addition to the witnesses you mentioned, hundreds of other people. They have attained documents... I don't even know the denominator to use to describe how many documents, tens of thousands, perhaps more. They have been working for over a year. This has been an intensive and extensive investigation, but I think the hardest part of their task now is in these public facing hearings, painting a clear, concise, easily digestible picture for the American people to make clear not only what happened, but why it's important, why it is urgent for action to be taken, to make sure this never happens again.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
And also those who broke the law, who violated our constitution, who tried to cut the legs out of our very system of democracy are held accountable. That's going to be a hard job, but that's what these public hearings are about. It's very much how during Watergate, it was the public hearings that really turned the tide of American sentiment. They're trying to catch that lightning in a bottle again.
Farai Chideya:
But during the Mueller hearings, it was compared to what some people thought a little bit of a nothing burgers. So could that happen again?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
It's possible. The one thing that's different with the January 6th committee is that the committee members themselves are going to be speaking in a unified voice. It's not going to be this partisan division within the committee where you had this information going out, but a constant pushback, a constant at times gaslighting about what was in it. In the case of the Mueller report, you even had the attorney general at the time, William Barr, who was trying to downplay it and actually falsely represented what it was. In this case, you're going to have every member of this January 6th committee speaking in a clear unified way. Hopefully that will give him this opportunity to paint this clear picture for Americans in really a way we have not seen before.
Farai Chideya:
Now, there is a lot going on already. Mark Meadows is the former Trump chief of staff and he stopped cooperating with the select committee in December, the house approved a contempt referral against him, but the Justice Department has not yet brought contempt charges against Meadows. Some people are starting to criticize A.G. Merrick Garland for seeming to lean back a little bit, but other people also say, "Don't rush into this." What's the DOJs role here? And what are some of the sentiments that are being expressed about how that department is playing its cards?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
Yeah. So the role of the Department of Justice is to investigate and potentially bring charges against those who committed criminal acts. One thing that we've been hearing about is whether the January 6th committee, which their role is not to find crimes it's to investigate what happened, present a clear picture to the American people and perhaps propose legislation that can help prevent this from happening again. But they could also send criminal referrals to the Department of Justice. And we've been hearing a lot about whether that might happen. The DOJ can make the drum beat a little louder in the areas that the members of the committee believe that lawlessness took place as far as what the DOJ might do. I'm a co-host of another podcast called #SistersInLaw and we're split half and half about whether to criticize Merrick Garland or to say, "Wait a minute, wait a minute.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
We don't know everything that happens in the DOJ." I'll see all three of my sisters-in-law are former federal prosecutors and say, "Wait a minute, we don't know everything that merit Garland knows. So it's not for us to criticize." They have to be very careful and thorough, particularly when you're dealing with January 6th. And particularly when you are dealing with a former president and they may not be signaling everything that they are doing. Is also the consideration that for all we know, there may be a possibility that the DOJ thinks they can get Mark Meadows or others to give them more information, to cooperate more and maybe holding off on these charges might encourage that. I don't know. I don't know. But I do know that time is running out. Not necessarily in terms of the ability to bring criminal charges, but A, in the amount of time this is going to hold America's attention and B, before the next election when a lot of things can change in practical purposes.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
So I'm on the side of people that I'm getting antsy about what the attorney general will do and when, but we will have to see, only they know, and only the folks at Maine Justice know. And we'll have to wait to find out.
Farai Chideya:
What are you going to be, keeping your eye on.As you continue to pay attention to this story in your work? You're a lawyer. What are you keeping your eye on? And what do you think we should be keeping our eyes on?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
Well, I think we have these headlines that seem to come out every day, just with information more shocking than the day before, about people who were clearly involved in the planning and the days leading up to January 6th, the things that have been proven to be lies that people have told, including members of Congress, about what happened on January 6th and it's very easy to get caught up in that daily headline. What I'm looking for the most, aside from one I talked about earlier is whether the committee can deliver that clear, concise message, that story to the American people that is convincing. What I don't want to get lost is the fact that January 6th was built around this effort to try to deny the votes from not just any Americans, but a very specific subset of Americans from being counted, folks in places like Detroit and Philly and Atlanta and Milwaukee. Who lives in those places?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
These are black voters. This is right after 2020, black voters mobilized, got out and braved a pandemic to not only vote a Democrat into the white house, in one of the most historic things that has ever happened in this country. Said not one, but two senators, to Washington from Georgia. And that changed the course of the ensuing two years, politically. And this was an effort to help try to stop that, specifically. So I really hope that the race element of this, the voter suppression efforts that preceded and followed that are a part of this committee's work, because Americans also need to see very clearly why that is just as dangerous to our democracy as the people breaking the windows at the US capital and how they are related.
Farai Chideya:
Well, this is a perfect chance to switch to some of the other work you're doing. The Emancipator, it is a new organization with the stated mission "To resurrect and reimagine the first abolitionist newspaper in the US for a modern news era." And it just launched. Your framing of January 6th and its relevance to multiracial pluralistic democracy leads me to ask, what's your role at the Emancipator and what are you trying to accomplish?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
Yeah, so I am the lead and inaugural columnist for the Emancipator, which is an independent publication, which takes its inspiration from the Abolitionist Newspapers from the 19th century. These are the newspapers who not only advocated for the end of slavery, that was sort of the starting point for them. When you go back and read them, what these writers were doing was reimagining a future in which black people could be fully participating citizens in this nation, black people would not just be free from enslavement, but they would be fully enfranchised, able to vote, able to run for office, able to start businesses, able to get an education, start schools, run universities, be fully participating citizens. And so what we want to do here at the Emancipator is not just look backwards, not just examine what the problems are in our society and where the built-in systemic racism is in our institutions.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
But before we're thinking and think about how can and we get to that place where black people and brown people are fully realized participating citizens in this country, and what are the solutions, who is in the position to implement these solutions and how do we get there? So that's the starting point here. I'm hoping that this opens a conversation already. I've received great feedback from people in positions who have great ideas, who want to make change, who want to add even more to the conversation, which is exactly what I wanted. So I hope that they do what they can. I hope that they contribute to the Emancipator to keep this conversation going and continue to think out of the box about ways to find anti-racist solutions to the segregation and discrimination that's in our systems. You can find the Emancipator at theemancipator.org.
Farai Chideya:
That's Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Boston Globe senior opinion writer, an inaugural columnist for the Emancipator. Coming up next, we go deeper into the roots of the insurrection. I have a conversation with our senior producer, Bianca Martin, about my own three decades of covering politics from the field. And then we dive deeply into a radio documentary I did during the 2010 midterms that foreshadows what is happening today. That's on Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. So usually I am in the interviewer seat, but today I wanted to take some time to explain more about the years of work that I've done covering politics in the field and how that informs our work on this show. I believe that the United States is in a crisis of democracy and civil society. And of course that is not just about insurrection or even voting rights. I believe that true democracies respect their citizens in ways that have to do with our need for community, safety employment, health, education, and more. And that's why we started this show. Sometimes though, I worry that all this talk about insurrection seems floaty, disconnected from our daily lives. So I brought in our ace senior producer, Bianca Martin to interview me about what I've seen and heard and learned over the years. Hey Bianca.
Bianca Martin:
Hi Farai. Yes. Let's first go back to that moment in time when riders, some armed, stormed the US capital calling to overturn the 2020 presidential election. It was a stunning event. Did the interaction surprise you?
Farai Chideya:
Not one bit, no. In fact, I went on WDET the public radio station in Detroit. This was after we had voted, but before the election results came in, because of that delay over counting and I was asked "What's going to happen?" And I said, "Biden is going to win." I usually don't make predictions, but I got tired basically of years of being told... When I said, "I think this is going to happen. We should cover it. That X, Y, or Z." My editors were like, "No, no, no, that's not going to happen." And then it happened. So I was like, "You know what? I'm just going to call it." I said, "Look, Biden's going to win. And then there's going to be politic violence because it has been instigated." I called it, I named it. I have reported on extremism for 25 years. This was planned in plain sight. And even though some reporters talked about it, a lot of people didn't. I was not surprised one bit. And I don't think journalism should have been caught flatfooted in the way that it was.
Bianca Martin:
And you went out reporting on January 6th. Why did you choose to do that? and what did you do?
Farai Chideya:
Well, we actually played some of it here on the show. I was already hosting in producing this show and I went out specifically to the nonviolent portion of the Stop the Steal rally to observe. I knew that it was likely to get violent later, very likely. Like 99% chance of rain. And I went by the Ellipse, which was the main rally and that the energy was very negative. As a reporter who's been in riots, who's interviewed armed clan members in a snowy park and ride lot with no one else around, my spidey sense has to be 100 or else, I could go down. And I never take for granted what the risks are of field reporting. So my spidey sense said, "Okay, yeah, this is ramping up." So I actually went and interviewed protestors closer to the White House. People have group dynamics the way you feel energy at a concert.
Farai Chideya:
You're like, "Yay." People also feel energy at insurrections, riots things like that. So I was like, "Let me get further from the energy, but talk to people, carrying huge Trump banners, et cetera." People of all races. And I also wanted to respect that not everyone that was there to cause harm. I think I have tried to take pains in my reporting to disaggregate political sentiment from violence and also political sentiment from harm. What I was looking for was belief. And what I mean by belief was who believed that this was a democratic election. And a lot of the people I interviewed who were not there for violence, did not believe that America's democracy was working. Just as an example of the many different types of people I spoke with, I spoke with a young black man from Massachusetts, Jay, who at the time, 26 years old.
Jay:
Well, I just feel from my personal perspective that the media has portrayed him to be this disgusting, like misogynistic, racist bigot and I just don't see it. You know what I mean? I do my own research. I don't listen to the media anymore. I used to, and I felt like I was being brainwashed at the end of the day. So I was like, "I don't like to be taken advantage of in that way." And that's why I came out to support him just from that simple fact alone.
Farai Chideya:
And a lot of the people I interviewed very much truly believed that Donald Trump had won reelection, which he did not. But just saying
Bianca Martin:
And here we are today with the same sentiments bubbling up. And so I just want to ask, how are you feeling now as more evidence is coming forward on the January 6th insurrection? The feeling was palpable that day, as you mentioned, it's coming back. How are you feeling?
Farai Chideya:
I've honestly been processing a huge amount of resentment about how in the journalism industry, a lot of people who tried to cover what became the roots of the insurrection were viewed as biased, particularly if we were people of color. And I had a really hard time in my newsroom in 2016. Later studies proved that racial resentment was the number one predictor of Trump vote in that election. And at the time I presented a lot of evidence that we knew needed to pay attention to racial resentment, and I was squashed. And this is not that all Republicans are racist or all white people are racist or all Republicans are white. None of those are true. But this was a reality of how xenophobia was used to market to voters. And that marketing of xenophobia then create created yet more xenophobia. Racial resentment has been used since the beginnings of American society by different politicians and different factions to get their needs taken care of.
Farai Chideya:
And I saw this and I thought it was dangerous in 2016. And I also saw how various levels of sentiment had also been cross pollinated with the white nationalist and supremacist movements. There are people marketing guns under the aegis of Boogaloo. Many people view this as the ability to end society as we know it. And sometimes under the banner of a race war, there's a whole concept of a racial holy war. These things sound really like out there and disconnected, but they actually lead to things like increases in ammo sales, the polarization of extremist inside the military and recruitment inside the military.
Farai Chideya:
Now I feel this weird mix of sometimes the anger and the resentment and the frustration I talk about, but also free from gaslighting. A lot of people I know who've covered extremism feel this way too. It's like, you've been telling people "An asteroid's about to hit the earth" and asteroid's about to hit the earth. "Hey, look, there's an asteroid about to hit the earth." And finally, when other people see it, everyone's like, "Oh my gosh," but at least you're not disbelieved anymore. Does that make any sense?
Bianca Martin:
Yeah, it does make sense. The events we saw on January 6th, it didn't happen in a vacuum. You've been reading the tea leaves. You reported on the many threads of racial resentment and xenophobia. And of documentary that were about to share with everyone listening, talk about what it is and why you want us to listen to this now.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, because we tend to be focused on whatever's right in front of us and by we, I mean, human beings in general. I think it's important to realize that this buildup to a crisis of democracy that we're living through has been happening for years. There have been people strategizing and creating laws and practices is and organizing around challenging the concept of democracy and who belongs in American democracy and who gets to be treated what ways in the United States. And as I began reflecting about how we got to the insurrection, I really traced back the first time that I felt a sense of existential threat to American democracy. And that was while reporting this documentary, it's called Pop and Politics radio. And my team traveled hundreds of miles in Florida and hundreds of miles in Arizona. We went to the US-Mexico border.
Farai Chideya:
We interviewed sheriff, Joe Arpaio. We talked to lawmakers, we talked to immigration activists. We went to the Colorado river tea party convention. And I later brought one of the organizers of the Colorado river tea party convention to Harvard to speak to students. I do not believe in living in a bubble. I do not believe in isolating myself from the world. I've taken great pains and great risks to try to engage with America. But sometimes America also takes me back and this was a time where I went and I got a story that I think could help us understand how we got to today. And that's why I wanted to share it now with all of us here at Our Body Politic.
Bianca Martin:
Thank you Farai.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks, Bianca. That was Our Body Politics senior producer, Bianca Martin, talking to me about covering American democracy and insurrection. And now here is some of my 2010 radio documentary Pop and Politics radio. I designed it, hosted it and also co-produced with WNYC and American public media. In some ways, it's hard to believe that this was 12 years ago, but in other ways it feels like the on ramp to the challenges that we're facing in today's America.
Farai Chideya:
In April, Arizona governor Jan Brewer signed State Senate bill 1070 into law.
Jan Brewer:
Though, many people disagree. I firmly believe it represents what's best for Arizona.
Farai Chideya:
Immigration enforcement is generally the federal government's territory, but SB 1070 would allow state law enforcement to ask anyone to show documentation that they're here legally at any time. The president weighed in.
President Obama:
If we continue to fail to act at a federal level, we will continue to see misguided efforts opening up around the country.
Farai Chideya:
A majority of Arizonans and Americans support tougher immigration laws, but there are plenty of critics.
Speaker 7:
They need to stop the SB 1070. It's going to hurt our community. It's going to hurt everyone.
Speaker 8:
They're blaming every kind of brown person possible for their economic turbulent times.
Farai Chideya:
Arizona continues to make headlines because of its laws and its lawmakers.
Russell Pierce:
Illegal immigration affects every issue we talk about in this economy, education, healthcare, crime, taxes, all of that is a direct and it's a negative impact, not a positive impact.
Farai Chideya:
That's Arizona state, Senator Russell Pierce, who sponsored SB 1070. In July, a federal court put most of the law on hold. One issue at hand, whether the law authorizes racial profiling, Pierce strongly rejects that idea.
Russell Pierce:
No, it's an absolute lie. How demeaning to law enforcement, how demeaning to our heroes in blue and brown that patrol 24/7. That is the most absurd comment by the left that could ever be made. It's simply not true. Under federal law, there's no protection from racial profiling.
Farai Chideya:
For Pierce, the political has a tinge of the personal. In 2004, his son, a Sheriff's deputy was shot by an immigrant here illegally. He says that's not why he's fighting for tougher laws. He's eager to see immigration used as a national litmus test.
Russell Pierce:
We have weak need politicians who pander to the open border crowd or pander to the cheap labor crowd that ignore the damage to this country. Well, a lot of those aren't going to be employed after November, 2010, and that'll be a good thing for America.
Farai Chideya:
Before going into politics, Russell Pierce was in law enforcement. For 23 years, he worked for the Maricopa County Sheriff's department and he himself was shot in the line of duty. But people who have to enforce the laws in Arizona today, including SB 1070, don't always on tactics. Tony Estrada is the sheriff of Santa Cruz county, which lies right on the Mexican border.
Sheriff Tony Estrada:
My feelings on Senate Bill 1070 are very adamantly against it. From the very beginning I used to tell people, "This is a nightmare." It is a nightmare. I'll tell you why. I don't care how they amend it, how they tweak it or how they disguise it, it will lead to racial profile.
Farai Chideya:
Sheriff Estrada says that if a new court ruling reinstates the more controversial part of SB 1070, the one that permits stopping people for their ID, he'll enforce it. But he's willing to speak out about the law and the realities of border enforcement.
Sheriff Tony Estrada:
They may think that because I am against Senate Bill 1070, that I am for illegal immigration. I am not. I think like everybody else does. I'm sure that people should come across the border legally. But the reality is it's not going to happen for a lot of reasons. A lot of the people that are coming, are coming from extreme poverty. They have no history. They have no background. They have no papers. They have no chance of getting a visa or a work permit. So they're coming here because they want to survive. So as far as I'm concerned, immigration pales, the biggest problem we have as a nation are drugs.
Farai Chideya:
The sheriff is in Nogales, Arizona, on one side of the order fence. Nogales, Mexico is on the other. A series of tunnels run underneath the border, dug by smugglers of drugs and of people. Sheriff Estrada wishes enforcement would focus more on drug crime.
Sheriff Tony Estrada:
Some of the politicians say there will be no immigration reform until we secure the border. There is no such thing as a secure border. The border will always be porous. Why? Because they'll either dig tunnels to get under it, they'll come through the ports, they'll go over the ports. Illegal immigration is a phenomenon. It follows a path of employment and demand and it's going to continue. There's no way you can stop it.
Farai Chideya:
Going out with a team of reporters gave me a new perspective on day to day life in Southern Arizona. The state is filled with border patrol checkpoints. If you're pulled over, you stop, roll down your window, an agent asks some questions. It can be quick and painless or intimidating. On the way back from a taping, our radio producer, Susie, was with a local videographer, Antonio. He's originally from Ecuador and he was driving his truck. So here's what happened when they reached that checkpoint. They slowed down, the border patrol agent waved his hand, they both thought it was a keep ongoing kind of wave, but he wanted them to stop. And he was angry that they did.
Border Patrol Agent:
Stop sign.
Antonio:
No, I'm sorry… I just thought that I’d…
Border Patrol Agent:
Are you US citizens?
Antonio:
Uh, I’m a permanent resident.
Farai Chideya:
"Do you all have issues stopping at a stop sign? I didn't even waved at you. Are you both US citizens?" Antonio told the agent he's a permanent resident. The agent says, and that's even worse. "Do you want to step out of the vehicle?"
Susie:
Do you want both of us out?
Border Patrol Agent:
No just him.
Farai Chideya:
"No, just him." The board patrol agent said, "Just him." Antonio got out of the car. A group of agents took him over to the side of the road and asked him questions. A few really tense minutes later, they let him get back in the car.
Susie:
Are you okay?
Antonio:
Yeah.
Susie:
How do you feel right now?
Antonio:
That's funny. I don't know. You telling me I don't have you heard, but there's like a $10,000 fee for running a stop sign in a border patrol tape point. I was just like, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'll never do it again." But I think he was trying to intimidate me to make me "Ah, here are the drugs" or something like that. But I was just like, "Yeah, I have nothing to be afraid of." What are they going to do? Send me back to Ecuador? Okay. Pay for my ticket, I'm going to go for Christmas anyways.
Farai Chideya:
Some people are getting nervous about how our population is changing. We asked a couple of analysts for the big picture, starting with Mark Lopez of the Pew Hispanic Center.
Mark Lopez:
Latinos are a growing population and a relatively young population. So as you move forward in time, we're going to see more and more Hispanics who turn 18, who are US citizens and then are eligible to vote. And we've actually seen that in election cycles over the last 15 or so years, where in each and every election cycle, more Latinos vote, each and every election cycle more are registered and each and every election cycle Latinos represent a larger share of all voters than they did in the previous cycle.
Farai Chideya:
The millennial general is also gaining power, especially after turning out to vote in high numbers in 2008. Erica Williams is the deputy director of Progress 2050, a group that studies younger voters.
Erica Williams:
In about five years, millennials are going to make up. And when I say millennials, I'm referring to young voters. Right now, age 18 through 29 are predicted to make up more than a third of the electorate. So it's a huge generation. And then looking at the trends and ethnicity and diversity and all of the demographic growth that we're expecting, by the year 2050 there's going to be no a single ethnic or racial majority in the United States. So if you combine those two factors, you're looking at an incredible influx of new voters, particularly for the millennial generation, that is incredibly diverse.
Farai Chideya:
That was a bit of the radio documentary that I created hosted. And co-produced with WNYC and American public media, Pop and Politics radio. Coming up next more of my 2010 documentary Pop and Politics radio showing the frame fabric of American democracy. You're listening to Our Body Politic
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. On today's show we've been doing a deep dive into the insurrection on January 6th, the investigation into it. And now we are revisiting a radio documentary I produced, that chose the roots of America's political discontent. My producers for this documentary project, and I traveled hundreds of miles in both Florida and Arizona for this project, we focused on two states with great political, cultural, economic, and racial diversity and plenty of disparities. Arizona's sheriff, Joe Arpaio became him a flash point of the political divide. And later in 2017, he became the first person president Donald Trump pardoned. So let's return to the Pop and Politics radio documentary on Arizona. Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, he's made headlines for rating shops, factories McDonald's to find people here illegally. To some, Arpaio is a folk hero. To others, a man who's taken federal law into his own hands. We visited the sheriff in his office. Every inch of wall was covered with newspaper clippings about him, posters of him, photos. It's like a shrine.
Joe Arpaio:
I've been in sheriff for almost 18 years. My big job was the regional director in Mexico city for the US drug enforcement administration, including Turkey to middle east Texas, Arizona. I took an oath of office 18 years ago, to enforce all the laws. It is a very volatile situation. It's very controversial, this illegal immigration situation. I've been investigated, still am, I presume, by the US Justice Department of Civil Rights. 60 days into the Obama administration, they started investigating me for alleged racial profile. So I only say that because I'm doing my job, but there seems to be a little trend here of politics of all.
Farai Chideya:
Tell me about the citizens who you recruit to do law enforcement, who are not sheriffs, who are not paid officials. How do you approach the idea of citizens participating in law enforcement?
Joe Arpaio:
Well, since I've been the sheriff, we call that a posse. Here under the law, I can swear in private citizens, we have almost 3,000. 57 different posses, including airplanes, Jeeps, motorcycles saves the taxpayers, millions and millions of dollars. They pay for everything. We never had any problems with the posses shooting people and so on. So I am going to form posse 58, which will be a special posse dedicated to enforce the illegal immigration laws. And they all work for me, free. But they don't do what I say, I fire them. They don't get money anyway, but they have to turn in their badge.
Farai Chideya:
Maricopa County has one of the highest rates of being sued of any Sheriff's department in the country. In a 1996 case, an inmate died while in a restraining chair, after being beaten by officers. The inmates' family settled a wrongful death lawsuit for more than $8 million. Sheriff Arpaio says he wishes the lawyers hadn't settled the case. He also defends the Tent City Jail, a place where inmates have to live outdoors and scorching weather. The sheriff tends to exaggerate the temperature a bit.
Joe Arpaio:
I have room for 2500 people in the desert up to up the Korean war tents over a half a million people have come through our tents. I know it gets hot, like 140 degrees in the summer. Doesn't bother me. And the tents are so bad. Why did four presidential candidates visit me in the tents? Why would they stand next to me and say, "We love this program." I'm talking about Senator Dole ran for president, he came. Phil Graham, Texas, he came. Governor Wilson K McCain came. Of course they all lose. They never win when they visit the tents.
Farai Chideya:
You seem to really love your job. What do you love about it?
Joe Arpaio:
The people. What keeps me going is when the people come up to me and say, "Thank you Sheriff, thanks for what you're doing." And they call me racist and everything. But I know I not, I don't care what they call me. In my heart, I know I not.
Farai Chideya:
If you were president Obama, what would you do about illegal immigration?
Joe Arpaio:
If I was the president, what I would do? I knew how to solve the problem at the border. Nobody asked. Why don't they ask me my opinion? Well,
Farai Chideya:
Well, I'm asking you right now. So what would you do?
Joe Arpaio:
Thank you for asking me. You're one of the few that will ask, including the media. Thank you for doing that. I know where the boarder is, I'm the guy that spent all those years there and we have a border 2000 miles. We have violence across the border. Listen, our army across the border to work with their army, like I used to work with their army in Mexico. That probably will never happen, but we sent armies to Iraq, Afghanistan, because of terrorism. I'm talking about bilateral now, not unilateral. Bilateral, which means we work together, they ask us.
Farai Chideya:
You would open up another front, essentially along the border, is that what you're saying? Is that practical?
Joe Arpaio:
No, I wouldn't even call it a war. I call it police action.
Farai Chideya:
As we headed out the door, the sheriff told us to be sure and visit his Tent City Jail. He even told us to visit in the afternoon when it was hotter. So we did.
Speaker 16:
Well, put it this way. It's very, very hot.
Speaker 17:
It's actually really hot. It's
Al Garza:
Extremely warm in the summertime. A hundred, 108, 111.
Farai Chideya:
The yard is packed gravel, green tents, house metal bunk beds with faded pink sheets, pink towels hang off the rails of the beds. And the men are wearing pink boxer shorts, a deliberate choice by sheriff Arpaio, explained to us by one of the prisoners.
Speaker 17:
The reason they has pink is to degrade the men. We're men, we know pink is for the girls. And then pink is feminine. And now you have the pink, is to grade man, to make us feel lower than what we already are.
Farai Chideya:
I traveled to the border in the Tucson sector to meet with Al Garza. He used to be the national director of the Minuteman. Then he started his own organization called Patriots Coalition. Day and night, he goes out on patrol, watching for people crossing illegally. His group doesn't have the authority to apprehend people. They call border patrol, if they see someone suspicious.
Al Garza:
Now I've been at this now for seven years. I'm a retired private investigator from Southern California. I am a Mexican descent. I'm fifth generation in the United States.
Al Garza:
You okay, [Shorey 00:38:34]? Right now, we're going to a place called Huachuca Mountains. The Huachuca Mountains are very commonly known for the illegal activity that we are currently facing in this nation. We're approximately about 45, maybe 50 miles from the border. And believe it or not, at one point, it was just like the border because the traffic was so immense and so intense. That's not the case anymore because we do exist here as Minuteman. By the way, our functions vary from time to time. But the most important ones, we observe, spot and report, and that's all we do. And it's very effective. To the right, we're approaching the forth Huachuca as I said before. And of course, along with not only illegal aliens, now we know for a fact that there are countries of interest that are utilizing these different entries, if you will. Countries like Iran, Iraq, Somalia, the list goes on. We have found, by the way, Qurans rugs, turbines, fly tickets.
Farai Chideya:
When I talked to the border patrol spokesman, he hadn't heard of any Qurans being found in the desert. And even if he had, said the spokesman, a religious book is not necessarily a sign of terror, it's a piece of personal property. Yet, Al Garza feels motive by many things to travel the border.
Al Garza:
Actually, to be quite honest with you, it's become a spiritual warfare. I'm a Christian and I'm very proud of it. I believe in our principles. I believe in our foundation. This is what got us through it all for 200 years. The government isn't doing it, we've got to come out here. I don't like spending my money, gas is expensive. Why should I be forking money out of my pocket? I'm doing it because my country depends on it, although a lot of people are oblivious to what's going on. At one point, I was very proud to say that I was of Mexican descent. I no longer can say that. I don't feel that I've got that pride anymore because of what I've seen. So I'm about a lot of things, but I am first and foremost, I'm about rule of law.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. This week, we're focusing on the roots of America's crisis of democracy by revisiting my 2010 radio documentary on an Arizona and an America divided. Now let's go back to the documentary.
Al Garza:
We are here at the Huachuca Mountains. Out here, we're commonly known for carrying weapons. I'm licensed to carry one and it's concealed. And the only time that thing should come out is when I'm either checking it for safety or I'm going to fire at something. In this case, I was checking for safety. I'll show it to you.
Farai Chideya:
What it is?
Al Garza:
This is a 10 millimeter weapon. More likely than anything else, is going to be for rattlesnakes and things of this nature, because typically you wouldn't fire upon anyone unless you have to. A lot of people ask me, "Well, what does that mean?" I don't know. I've never encountered it, but I'll know it when I see it. And I'm going to show you some area that is commonly known for illegal aliens, drugs, and a lot of coyotes. The coyotes, I don't know if you're familiar with the term, not the coyote the four legging one, but the coyote that actually brings people in.
Al Garza:
If I point to my ride, which in this case would be south west, there's trails that we can see that are actually widening color. Those are the areas that we look for. To my left, I see some shiny object that potentially could be someone spotting us. Well, here's a sock that would belong to a kid, a baby. They will stop, for example, here and wait for someone to pick them up. And while they're doing that, they will change their baby and they themselves will change into other clothing. So the idea here is to once they get to this point and away from here to mix in with the public. What better way to do it than with another set of clothes? Nobody knows where they went, nobody knows who they are, unless you catch them in the act. So you see what it really is. It's all about the [inaudible 00:42:48] movement. It's a takeover. Who's American dream is it anymore? What are they discussing in Congress? Are they discussing what's best for me and for you? We pay these people to represent the best interest of Americans.
Al Garza:
Are they really doing it? They're not. Being a Patriot, it doesn't mean that you sit on the couch, eat potato chips, drink beer, and then talk about what nonsense is going on. You do actually get up and you do something about it.
Farai Chideya:
This is land of the Tohono Oʼodham tribe. Theirs is the third largest native American reservation in the United States about the size of Connecticut. And their tribe has been hit with some of the same problems of border drug, smuggling, and crime that affect other regions. Sometimes their own members have gotten involved. It's all part of a series of changes that have troubled people like Art Wilson. Art is a member of the tribe. He's 52. As he showed me around, he remember how the border used to be much more fluid.
Art Wilson:
It's real evident that it's two separate countries now. When I was growing up, it wasn't that. I never knew or never even thought I was in a different country. I just figure I was in Oʼodham land.
Farai Chideya:
A treaty between the US and Mexico in 1853, split Oʼodham lands in two. But it's only within recent history that the border fence and stricter enforcement have made it harder for people to cross. The day I visited the reservation was the second anniversary of Art Wilson's mother's death. He and his family were preparing for a ceremony to honor her memory.
Speaker 20:
We are making [foreign language 00:44:18] .
Art Wilson:
Tortillas.
Speaker 20:
Tortillas.
Farai Chideya:
They're pretty good.
Farai Chideya:
There have been conflicts along this border for generations. When Art's grandmother was five, the US government came onto Oʼodham lands and took the children away to boarding schools to be assimilated into American culture.
Art Wilson:
I never really made the connection of the trauma of it all until when I think when my daughter turned five and one time I was telling somebody this story, and I said, "God I couldn't in my wildest dreams, imagine my five year old been taken away from me." I've almost lost her at fairs and stuff like that. Your heart drops and you just... But they kept her out there, she couldn't come home. She was able to come home, I think she said around about the age of 15. But just understanding human behavior, why she was so bitter against white.
Farai Chideya:
Do you know if your grandmother was allowed to speak Oʼodham?
Art Wilson:
No. She said they would put soap in their mouths, if they were caught talking Oʼodham.
Farai Chideya:
Most of the younger people here speak the language, or is it something where people are losing it?
Art Wilson:
The language is being lost. And I don't say it's lost, it's still there. It's just that we're not teaching it, because there's no need. I had to speak for me to come in to communicate to my grandfather because he didn't speak English. My grandmother would always say that you don't have blonde hair, you don't have blue eyes, so why do you need to speak English? And she would say-
Farai Chideya:
How do you say that?
Art Wilson:
[foreign language 00:46:06].
Farai Chideya:
You're in Congressman Grijalva's district, correct?
Art Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Farai Chideya:
Do you feel that he or anyone else in the US government, not tribal government, is doing a good job of representing you? And is there a big push to get people involved in voting?
Art Wilson:
I know there is a push right now. The tribe is trying to register new voters. And I don't think Grijalva is representing as well in the sense that... This bill, was it...
Farai Chideya:
SB 1070?
Art Wilson:
SB 1070. I know it's got some mixed feelings, but to us, why are they making such a big deal out of it? We go through the same thing. They ask us to pull out our tribal IDs. We have to carry our IDs with us. What's the difference? What gets me angry is, everything seems to be going into Mexican. You see red, white, and green flags and mean like we had to assimilate. Why don't they have to? You know what I mean? It's kind of that. I see the importance that the Mexican people have brought to us, but I also see the bad that has come with that.
Farai Chideya:
So what does it do to home when you have a national border running through it?
Art Wilson:
To me, it was sad the first time I saw it. I felt crying, because somebody were to come into your home where you live right now and to say, "Okay, this part of the house is not yours." And you feel sad, but yet you also feel powerless because there's nothing you can do.
Farai Chideya:
These are not the only choices, but if you had to choose between either there was a solid fence running along the border, or that the land was open once again, that the Oʼodham people could travel freely, but that there were more border crossings, which would you choose
Art Wilson:
You're asking me a hard question. Right now, because of the safety issue, I would say I would see it as being secure, being solid. But my heart also cries because it's that cutoff between the land. I know that you can't go back to yesterday years. So if anything I would see, the solidness, because of the danger that is there, like I said, would be my answer.
Farai Chideya:
That was a portion of my 2010 audio documentary Pop and Politics radio. We wanted to share it with you to give context to our current battles over what democracy really means in the shadow of the insurrection. And you better bet that we will continue to cover the investigation on shows to come.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We are on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcast. Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm the executive producer and host Farai Chideya. Our co-executive producer is Jonathan Blakely. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booker and producer. Emily J. Daly is our producer. Our associate producer is Natyna Bean.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Steve Lack and Lauren Schild and engineered by Archie Moore.
Farai Chideya:
The Pop and Politics radio documentaries were produced by Nona Willis Aronowitz, Aaron Ernst, Nelly Black, Ave Cardillo, Susie Lichtenberg and Carrie Donahue.
Farai Chideya:
This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.
.