The Turkish government's weak response to the region’s devastating earthquakes may signal the beginning of a political shift away from the current administration. We speak with Prof. Ali Tekin, a political scientist on the ground. Then we pivot to a conversation about apologies–how to give and how to receive– with co-authors of the book “Sorry, Sorry, Sorry: The Case for Good Apologies", Marjorie Ingall and Susan McCarthy.
Farai Chideya
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This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. The catastrophic earthquakes in Turkey and Syria have displaced millions, while more than 50,000 people have lost their lives. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken visited the region late last month and pledged $100 million in new aid on top of the 85 million already pledged to the region. The question now is what is happening on the ground? And many residents say a lack of enforcement of building codes contributed to the disaster. Pointing the finger directly at President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his administration with an election scheduled for May of this year, how will the earthquake response affect Turkey's political future and the rest of the world? Joining me now is Professor Ali Tekin, dean of the faculty of political science at Istanbul's Gediz University. He's also a former member of Turkish parliament. Thanks for being here, professor.
Ali Tekin
Thank you for inviting me.
Farai Chideya
We have someone in common, Şerif Turgut, who is an incredible human being. I met her on a fellowship program at Stanford, the night fellowship program for journalists. And, you know, I just when this happened, of course, she was the first person I thought of. And she said, “Talk to Ali.” And so before we dive in, I just want to know how you're doing as a human being. How are you? How's your family? How are you holding up?
Ali Tekin
Well, I'm doing relatively fine. I had some roots in the disaster area. I'm from Adana. Adana is at the western edge of the disaster zone. But it is hit, but not in a major way. But I know a lot of people who are impacted by the disaster. And now, you know, the follow up quakes are still continuing in the region and people are quite worried. Some of my relatives, they don't want to go inside their houses. And in February, around this time, it is cold. But over time, you know, the food and health care services are improving, but especially the shelter business is still a problem. Plus, you know, sanitation has become a problem because you need the toilets. You need garbage collection, running water. These are still not provided fully. And in some areas these are not provided at all. It seems like, therefore, life is very difficult.
Farai Chideya
President Erdogan is now getting a lot of blowback, you know, from his citizens saying, hey, why didn't you pay more attention to building codes? Is that really at the root of it? Is that part of the issue with this massive, you know, 50,000 person body count that there were green lights given to developers to build things that shouldn't have been built?
Ali Tekin
That's big part of the problem. But there is a general problem about how Turkish politics operates. In 1999, in Izmit area, which is very close to Istanbul, the basically this is the heartland of Turkey's industrial zone. There was an earthquake and again, it was a devastating one. And that seemed to be a critical juncture for Turkish policymakers. A lot of studies were made, a lot of promises were made building regulations were enacted, etc., and it seemed that they were enforced relatively well for a few years. But after a few years, politicians basically didn't enforce it because the Erdogan government is a populist government. It didn't enforce the regulations. And also it was a government that was financing its politics, basically with the construction sector. Corruption was rampant. And basically before the elections, Mr. Erdogan was telling the people, the electorates, that if they have irregular buildings, they would. Given that amnesty actually for their irregular buildings and then nobody would tear it down. This was seen as an election promise and thousands and thousands of people actually benefited from this and voted for Mr. Erdogan for this promise. Actually, they are going for general elections in May, it seems. And there was a bill, actually a proposal in the parliament for another amnesty for irregular buildings just before the earthquake. It was given to the parliament. But now they, of course, suspended this. But before elections in 2018, again, an amnesty was offered. So this amnesty is election promises. They were quite important in terms of people not taking these regulations quite seriously. Also, you know, Turkey simply didn't invest in the public administration capacity to enforce these regulations. In local governments, they usually don't have able people. On top of that, the local governments usually use these kind of irregularities as a way of basically corruption, because what happens is, as an owner of an irregular building, you go to the local government and say, look, you turn a blind eye to my building here. The local government says, Alright, we'll do that, but you need to contribute to this foundation. Or basically I would have some other ways of giving money to the local government. Pretty much everybody knows about this system. Therefore, it is a very corrupt system at the local level as well as at the national level. The emergency search and rescue branches of the government were not really funded. They were understaffed. They didn't have the materials necessary to do search and rescue. And these governmental bodies were basically filled with political cronies, the party supporters that didn't really know what they were doing. Just to give you an example, an important person in the Emergency Management Agency was basically a theologist. The person who's supposed to lead this search efforts is an Islamic theologist.
Farai Chideya
Not a traditional degree for that kind of work. Yeah.
Ali Tekin
Basically, this is a sign of a hollowing out of government institutions for the last 20 years. Yeah, it is about pretty much all branches of the government. These institutions are basically made extremely weak.
Farai Chideya
Let me ask about how people are self-organizing. You know, I lived in New York during Hurricane Sandy. I covered Hurricane Katrina. I got to see in those natural disasters how people self-organized. And there was an interesting study that came out showing that basically the mutual aid for Hurricane Sandy was more effective than a lot of the organized aid. So how much is there organized aid and how much is there mutual aid between people who used to be neighbors or who were family members? And how does that all work together on a daily basis.
Ali Tekin
At least in the initial days, it was just people, you know, some civil society organizations, some non-governmental organizations who arrived in the disaster zone and did the search and rescue operations. The government agencies, including the military, arrived extremely late. There was a huge chaos in Ankara among the decision makers. The military traditionally speaking, that they would be playing the major role in disaster response. But this government, they didn't want the military to have this social sympathy, it looks like, and they were kept in their barracks. But their civilian, let's say, agency basically failed, couldn't do anything. It didn't have the resources, it didn't have the know how, and it was run extremely badly. Therefore, it was basically non-governmental organizations. One of them is called AHBAP is like a friend. And they were there in the disaster area from day one. Of course, the problem is that you are dealing with in search and rescue, you are dealing with huge concrete blocks, you know, with hands with small tools. You are limited in terms of what you can achieve. You need big machinery sometimes to move the blocks, and that requires government action. So the government went there in or around the third day and the weather was really cold. It looks like a lot of people died, you know, from called move under the rubble. The tent. Issue was a very interesting issue, and it showed how corrupted the Turkish institutions have become, unfortunately. We have Red Crescent, that is the Red Cross of the Muslim world, basically Red Crescent. Red Crescent. It is an old institution with a lot of sympathies for our people. But in the recent earthquake, it really couldn't do anything. It turns out that it had tents in its depots, but it didn't distribute the tents. And in the third day I mentioned this NGO called AHBAP. Apparently got over 2000 tents from Red Crescent and it had to pay for it.
Farai Chideya
Hmm.
Ali Tekin
This became public and there was a huge backlash. The Red Crescent normally would distribute its tents free, and it should have done this from day one. And then it started selling to an NGO like AHBAP. Also, you know, some of the foreign materials, tents, they arrived in Turkey, including the U.N. and at the airports, they weren't allowed for quick distribution because they wanted to change their logos. This government agencies, including Red Crescent, had the offer. The Disaster Administration wanted to put their own logos on help coming from outside. These things all became public. And I think there's a huge backlash against how this disaster was handled. Of course, it was a big disaster. The buildings were not really that good. Not healthy. Some of these buildings were built a long time ago and they cannot be blamed on the government that has been in power for the last 20 years. But a lot of the buildings that were basically razed collapsed. They were made in recent years old buildings. Maybe they were substandard, but the new buildings are also substandard and there is no excuse for such buildings collapsing. And then, of course, it is the duty of the government, including the local governments, and they should be penalized for whatever they did and enforce. In this case, they didn't enforce the the regulations.
Farai Chideya
So do you think President Erdogan is going to have a harder reelection campaign because of everything that's come out?
Ali Tekin
Yeah, definitely. He was already having a difficult time because Turkey is, in the meantime going through an economic crisis. So people are questioning the logic of the economic policy that he has been following. He's lowering the interest rates to fight against inflation. That has no place in economic theory. But he's he's just doing this because he, as a muslim, thinks that interest is a sin. But it's a strange argument because you either get rid of it. Right. If you really believe so, it is it is populism. It is just alluding to this Islamist values. You know, Turkey has turned into an authoritarian populist regime, which a lot of Islamic scholars.
Farai Chideya
I was just looking up this concept which I'd heard of before in Christianity, it's sometimes called usury. And is it riba in Islam? Yes. Okay. Yeah. This idea that you should not charge interest. But basically what you're saying is if there is an interest rate, it doesn't fulfill the basic qualification at all.
Ali Tekin
Yeah, that's right. I mean, if it is the 80% or 8%, it shouldn't matter if it is something you would like to get rid of. This is a secular country, supposedly in the constitution. It says it's a it's a secular country. You know, these religious considerations should not be a part of the policymaking. But this populist governments, you might, of course, know that from the United States has value.
Farai Chideya
Yes, we do
Ali Tekin
They are against size. They are against knowledge. They don't like scientists. They don't like knowledgeable people. They call them aloof elites. And they want to cater to the religious, traditional feelings of the laypeople. But not everybody's buying into this. Even the laypeople, at least some of them, are seeing that this was handled terribly. I would say these elections you mentioned are not just the end of the Erdogan era in Turkey, but I think and I hope that this will be the end of the ideology of political Islam in Turkey as well as in other countries.
Farai Chideya
As you talk about political Islam in the U.S., we're talking about Christian nationalism, which is sort of ethno-nationalist movement, you know, often part of or adjacent to white supremacist movements and authoritarian movements in the U.S. And it's part we talk on the. A show fairly often about global ethno nationalist movements. You know, they're all separate, but they're all together. Part of the whole questions of the future of countries in an era that some people are calling globalization is also women and gender. You know, we've seen the fate of women change in the United States with abortion laws. We've seen the fate of women in other countries change. To your knowledge, what is the playing field for women in Turkey now as there are all these different political and religious cross-currents, plus this disaster?
Ali Tekin
That's a very good question. After a two almost two decades of AKP rule of at least one decade, they say it really has been under heavy repression. This repression has been against the opposition groups segments in the country. But at the same time, women had been heavily impacted by this repressive measures. Turkey was one of the leading countries to come up with what is called Istanbul Convention Action against violence against women and domestic violence. It was written here in Istanbul by the same party, actually, I would say about a decade ago when, you know, the winds are blowing from the European Union at the time. But now this government actually pulled out of it. What is interesting is women usually are actually braver. They prove to be braver than men in saying no to certain measures that they don't like about the government. Woman organizations, NGOs are still quite active and doing a great job. I would say that in the NGOs that went to the disaster area and saved lives and cared for the injured, there were a lot of women involved. It is one of the positive things that we can really get out of this horrible era. Another star has been the NGOs from outside Turkey, both the international public organizations, including the EU, NATO, U.N., you know, but also civil NGOs from outside. They actually arrived in the disaster zone faster than the Turkish state organizations in many ways. The government actually, it was getting ready to call everybody, all the neighbors, all the major powers in the world as enemies of Turkey. They were actually trying to depict a picture where each country in the world is working against Turkey. Right? This was the sort of propaganda that this government used in previous elections. This is a populist tactic. If you're surrounded by enemies who are getting ready to attack you any second, that leads to people getting together around the flag. That was the plan. But then foreign aid poured into Turkey. I think this plan was on a base and now it is impossible to basically implement this plan. So they need to work on some other plans. And this plan seems to be basically polarizing in Turkey. Whoever has a lot of criticism of the government institutions, they call him or her, you know, basically enemy of the state, the Turkish state. The typical jargon, the typical words that typical populists use. They are now being used in Turkey. Therefore, the enemy is to be found within Turkey. That was a change of the plan.
Farai Chideya
Yeah. Well, the last question I wanted to ask before we wrap up is about Syria. There have been stories about Turkish refugees and Syrian refugees competing for resources. There is a lot of criticism among some members of the international community of how the U.S. and the global community broadly have not provided aid to Syrian refugees. You know, people or people in governments or governments, and sometimes people are in places where their government is not protecting them and is not protected in the global community. So how do you see the dual nature or multiple nature of this disaster playing out where it is centered in Turkey? But there are also Syrian refugees and Syrians involved?
Ali Tekin
Yes, it is very one of the unfortunate element of this disaster that, you know, northern Syria was hit, as we know, in northern Syria, at least a big chunk of it is beyond the control of Assad's regime. This area is basically held by the rebels, supported by Turkey. But the international support really couldn't go through Damascus because Damascus asked for working. With the central authority for the delivery of this aid. The only way was to take it through the Turkish border. And I think the government, the Syrian government eventually accepted delivery of aid through the Turkish border. But it was again late and relatively small amounts. And what is interesting is that more Syrians died actually in the Turkish area of the earthquake than the Syrian one. There are several reasons for that. Number one, this earthquake took place right next to Syria, where there were a lot of Syrian refugees already living in Turkey. A relatively big numbers suffered from it. And in Syria, the buildings were basically one or two storey buildings, relatively less modern. But in a in an earthquake situation, perhaps it helps that as in the Turkish side, the buildings were, you know, many stories and more concrete and therefore it was, you know, more harmful to the occupants of the buildings. Well, there were some competition between the the locals living in the Turkish provinces with the Syrian refugees. There were some irregularities, ransacking, you know, this kind of a bit of criminal activities, especially in the early days. And some Syrian refugees were actually shipped into further Turkey, into safer regions. And of course, there was some people criticize this because they were expecting the locals to be sort of transported first. But, you know, this was this was such a big and messy thing. But I'm happy to say that, yes, despite some problems, some arguments, some issues, there was no sort of a regular fight or regular loss of life, etc., because of the problems between the Syrians and the the local Turks.
Farai Chideya
Well, you've given us so much food for thought and we're really grateful for it. Thank you, Professor Tekin.
Ali Tekin
Thank you, Farai, for having me. It was my pleasure.
Farai Chideya
That was Ali Tekin. Dean of the Faculty of Political Sciences at Istanbul's Gediz University.
You are listening to Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. We cover a lot of heavy issues on this show because it's our job to understand deeply what is going on in our world and what we can do about it. At the same time, we know we have to make space for joy, too. And that's why on this week's Sippin the Political Tea, we're talking to two longtime journalists about how to stay compassionate, considerate and accountable, even during turbulent times. As we get clearer and more vocal about what we need personally and professionally, we also understand what we aren't getting and who isn't giving it to us. So what makes for a good apology? Veteran writers Marjorie Ingall and New York Times best selling author Susan McCarthy are co-creators of SorryWatch.com and coauthors of the book. Sorry, Sorry, Sorry: The Case for Good Apologies. They're experts in the art and benefits of a good apology and what to do about those bad ones. Welcome, Marjorie.
Marjorie Ingall
Hi.
Farai Chideya
And welcome, Susan. Hey, great to be here. And I know you both. So if I crack up during the interview, that's just part of the game. So let me start with you, Susan. So for those who don't know about story, watch, what is it and how did it come to be?
Susan McCarthy
Sorry Watch is a website that analyzes apologies. We take them apart and we go. Was that good? Was that bad? Was this part good? What was the problem with this one? And just break it down so that people can say, oh, that was actually a really good apology. And you know what? That was a weasel apology.
Farai Chideya
Yeah. And Marjorie, what brought you together with Susan to do Sorry Watch and now the book.
Marjorie Ingall
The website was Susan's idea. We had both written about apology separately as journalists. Susan wrote a sort of humor piece about the horror that is sorry if apologies.
Farai Chideya
And I if then branch logic gone very bad.
Marjorie Ingall
Very bad. And I was the parent of a somewhat feral toddler. I actually have a picture of you with the feral toddler who is.
Farai Chideya
Now a lovely, lovely grown ish person.
Marjorie Ingall
Yes. And she spent all of pre-K in the consequences chair. And I also am Jewish and write for Jewish publications and wrote about apologies a lot every year at the high holidays and accepting them and making them. And so we joined forces and after a decade of doing SorryWatch.com wanted to do a book and look more deeply into research and the topic is so rich, there's so much more to say all the time. I think neither of us is bored.
Farai Chideya
Yeah, so we're going to go a lot deeper, so. Okay, Susan, let's start diving in here. How important is it to apologize even if you are stressed out, even if you're not feeling your best?
Susan McCarthy
I think it's very important. But I also think sometimes you can take a little time. If you're stressed out and not feeling your best, you might not do the best job. And so it's usually okay to say, I'm going to get back to you on this. I need to apologize to you and I need to think about it.
Farai Chideya
And Marjorie, I know both of your children, including your daughter, who spent the time in the little rebel with her fists in the air from day one. And you're Jewish and I'm black. We're like ebony and ivory. You know, some version of that. I would make a really long winded food analogy, but we're not going to go there. But, you know, I have spent many years with you and your family. And so different categories of humans take different types of apologies. What is the difference between how a child needs to navigate the world of apologies and how an adult needs to navigate it?
Marjorie Ingall
You know, we like to say that apologizing is so easy and so difficult. The steps of a good apology are the same. Whether you are a six year old who has just chased someone with a booker, whether you are a politician who has been caught in a lie, whether you need to apologize to a spouse or a friend or a relative.
Farai Chideya
Walk us through what the steps for a good apology actually are. So how many steps are there?
Marjorie Ingall
Six and a half steps. Here are the steps. No matter who you are. Number one, say you're sorry. Use the words I'm sorry or I apologize. Not your regretful, Not that you know you would like to apologize. Number two, say what you did. Name it not to the situation or the regrettable incident. Number three, show that you understand why it was bad. How you hurt, why you hurt. Number four only explain as much as you need to. This is the hard one for me. Do not make excuses. Explanations, not excuses. Number five, say why this will not happen again. What steps are you taking? Number six, If you can make reparations, make reparations, offer to make up for it, do an act of repair. And six and a half, which is another hard one, is just listen, let the other person have their say. And you can start with that with a little kid. You know, the habits that you make will carry you through.
Farai Chideya
And let's just keep it real. And I'm going to go to you, Susan, with more on this, because you do write about race in the book. These things can get tricky with the nuances of race and culture. First, Marjorie, how do you deal with nuances of race and culture when it comes to apologies?
Marjorie Ingall
You know, you need to be sensitive. The whole I don't care if someone is black, white or green, and we're all the same under the skin. No, we're not. We come from different places with different experiences and different collective experiences in this country, and that needs to be reflected in apologies. The playing field is not level. You know, whenever I look at research on apology, I want to know if someone has broken this down by race and gender. Also because being perceived as quote, unapologetic or being perceived as angry have very different impacts if you are particularly a black woman in America.
Farai Chideya
And let's run with gender. Susan, you know, as a smart woman, you are probably never patronized, never taken for granted, never talk down to you. But if you were in some horrible world, which certainly doesn't exist now, how would you perceive the gender field of apologies?
Susan McCarthy
That's a great minefield because women are told that they apologize too much. And we certainly see women who are like, I'm sorry if this has been mentioned. I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm sorry to tell you something you actually need to know. And that is not something women need to apologize for. On the other hand, we did a lot of research. Marjorie did especially did a lot of research on this. And some of our conclusion is that men need might need to apologize more rather than women apologizing less. We're kind of reluctant to go too far down the policing, what women say. There's also the thing about it's one thing to apologize for what you do, but you should never have to apologize for who you are.
Farai Chideya
Let's get into a specific so say a person does apologize, but that apology misses the mark. I am specifically thinking of the story of Maxwell Johnson and his granddaughter being racially profiled at the bank and not getting the apology they deserved. Susan, for those who don't know the story, could you share what happened?
Susan McCarthy
Yeah. Mr. Johnson took his granddaughter to the bank. He was being like a grandfather that's showing his granddaughter around to open an account in her own name. They are members of a Canadian Indian nation. They use their identity cards. And he had banked at this bank for a long time. He did not anticipate any problem. And the person he talked to, the loan officer, took the idea away and came back and said, Just a minute. And next thing you know, they were being arrested, they were being handcuffed, they were taken out on the sidewalk in handcuffs. Mr. Johnson and his granddaughter, people were walking by and looking and.
Marjorie Ingall
His granddaughter, who was 12.
Susan McCarthy
And the bank officer said, there's a fraud in progress. This kid is 17 and she's South-Asian and do something about it. And then the police made the calls that the bank officers should have made and determined that this was totally legit. She was using the tribal card she was supposed to use. The money was from a tribal settlement. Everything was on the up and up. They were taken to a police station and the police apologized to them. But the then the bank took ages and ages to come up with really bad apologies and saying like, you know, it was totally suspicious. And we took them out on the sidewalk to protect their privacy, which is…
Farai Chideya
That's the way I feel it all my traffic stops.
Susan McCarthy
And the thing is, they were angry and Mr. Johnson sued because they didn't get a good apology. They weren't either at the time or afterwards treated with the respect that anybody deserves.
Farai Chideya
Yeah. So, Marjorie, regardless of the reason, what does one do if one doesn't get the apology they deserve? And of course, there's, I'm sure, a decision tree of options. So what are some of the options? Yeah.
Marjorie Ingall
If the person is never going to give you the apology you deserve, if you know that they're not capable of it, if they're giving you the gaslighting. Sorry, You're a snowflake kind of bull pucky. Apologies do not waste your valuable emotional energy on this person. You're never going to get. What you want is however you think that this person is either educational, someone you need in your life, or someone you want in your life. Despite their flaws, you are completely within your rights to ask for a better apology. You can just say, I'm glad you want to make things right. But here's why. What you said. Didn't satisfy me. And here's what I need you to think about and then come back to me if you want to talk about it later.
Farai Chideya
Susan, I'm going to go into the very painful deep waters of current news. So on January 25th, Memphis Police Chief C.J. Davis released a statement in response to the death of Tyree Nichols, who was killed a few weeks earlier. Release footage shows that Nichols was beaten and pepper sprayed by six Memphis police officers while crying out for his mother to save him. Here's Chief Davis in a video released by the Memphis Police Department.
CHIEF DAVIS CUT
Aside from being your chief of police. I am a citizen of this community. We share. I am a mother. I am a caring human being who wants the best for all of us. This is not just a professional failing. This is a failing of basic humanity toward another individual.
Farai Chideya
Chief Davis also said the five officers directly responsible for the physical abuse of Nichols were terminated, shared regret on the department's behalf, and promised that an investigation was underway. But she never used the word sorry. So, Susan, would you say that this is an apology at all or a good one?
Susan McCarthy
No, it's not really an apology. Police regularly do this when there's something so horribly wrong is they say it's under investigation. We'll find out. You do need investigations. Investigations are good things, but you can apologize in the interim and you can say these five officers killed this man. This is completely unacceptable. We will find out what happened. And we are so sorry and we apologize because something went wrong and we'll find out what.
Farai Chideya
And Marjorie, going back into these race religion waters, people have apologized from official governments and organizations for the Holocaust. Thinking of Germany and France… doesn't mean that they were the best or that all reparations were made. Just saying there were apologies. There have been apologies for internment of Japanese-Americans. There's never been a federal apology for slavery in the same way. And in part, people use the idea of legal action as, oh, well, we can't apologize, because then maybe we'd have to, you know, give people the U.S. capital that enslaved people built. And it's like, no, I don't think that's going to happen. So what what how does, you know, legal risk get factored into the world of apologies, public apologies?
Marjorie Ingall
I think that when it comes to apologizing for slavery, it's not about legal risk. And Susan, I welcome you to chime in here. I think this is about a fundamental way that people in power in America want to see themselves and see America. They can see Japanese internment as a brief window in time of badness. Slavery is baked into America. And to apologize for that is too fundamentally destabilizing to the just-world hypothesis, which is the way a lot of people in positions of power want to see the world as a fair and just place. It causes huge cognitive dissonance, which is a very uncomfortable feeling. We can talk maybe not about politicians, but about specific institutions like Georgetown, which the student body voted that they wanted to make reparations for the fact that enslaved Americans built that university.
Susan McCarthy
And were sold to finance it.
Farai Chideya
Absolutely.
Marjorie Ingall
Yeah. And, you know, one of Susan's good examples in the book is when Antonin Scalia was like, I'm not responsible for slavery. My family got here after that was already long over. And like, dude, you went to Georgetown, You know, like, we all are culpable.
Farai Chideya
So, Susan, do you address this in the book, the question of laws and official institutions?
Susan McCarthy
Yeah, we do. We actually compared the apologies for Japanese incarceration in Canada and the United States because the experiences in Canada and the United States were not identical, but they were very much parallel. And in each case, you had leaders fighting not to apologize and saying, if I apologize to them, I'll have to apologize to everybody. Pierre Trudeau was like, I wasn't Prime Minister when that happened and Ronald Reagan was like, I didn't do that. But eventually in both countries, people asking for reparations did prevail. Now, as Marjorie says, that's a much more limited thing than slavery. But in each case, they got apologies, they got reparations, they got institutions to be built to help correct things that had happened in the past. It was pretty impressive. On a smaller scale, I think, of this guy who was wrong. Lee, imprisoned, wrongly convicted, spent years in prison because of police malfeasance. And when he was finally released, he said, and I'm estimating these numbers, he said he sued and he said, I want $18,000. I will take $15,000 with a private apology to me and my family, or I'll take $13,000 for a public apology.
Farai Chideya
Oh, I love that.
Susan McCarthy
He didn't get the public apology. So the county of L.A. paid him a couple million dollars not to have to apologize.
Farai Chideya
Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.
Susan McCarthy
It is.
Farai Chideya
Wow. So, Marjorie and Susan, now is time for the listener bonus round. One listener said that the worst apology they ever experienced was in the form of an emo rap song released on SoundCloud. In contrast, another said their worst apology was one that was never given. We also received a call from listener Patty. Here she is sharing one of the best apologies she's ever received.
PATTY CLIP
My teenage son offered me the perfect apology after a heated argument and a couple of hours of cooling off. So he sought me out and said, Mom, can we talk? I'm sorry about what I said.I was out of line and I promised not to talk to you that way again, because I don't ever want to hurt your feelings. One: he asks for my permission for my education. Two: he owned his actions. Three: he acknowledged my feelings. And four: he didn't make any, include any excuses or blame for my part in the altercation.
Farai Chideya
So, Marjorie, with your two strong willed adult children, have you gotten some good apologies?
Marjorie Ingall
Yes. My kids have given me really good apologies. They've also given me really, really bad apologies. It's something that we work on throughout life. And I think that we just have to keep remembering that our brains are not wired to make this easy. And that's why we say apologies are a brave act. Good apologies are back. And I'm so impressed with that caller's kid. He's a teenager. Their brains are not finished baking. I mean, that is really a credit to her parenting that she raised a kid. Who knows that's important and who did that.
Farai Chideya
All right, Susan, going to you. We had several of our listeners vote on whether or not apologies were good or bad. So 100% said “sorry if you took my suggestion the wrong way” was bad." 97% said “I'm sorry. It was just a joke” was bad. 99% also agreed. “Sorry, I didn't realize you were so sensitive” was bad. 85% said “I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I'll do better.” Was good. It may be I'll do better part. Now 98% said this longer apology was good. “I'm so sorry. I forgot to pick you up. I know how frustrating that is for you because you had to wait hours for me when you expected me to be there. I promise I'll set a reminder next time so this doesn't happen again.” And it was fun getting our listeners to weigh in on these sample apologies. So, you know, Susan, now that we talked through a few of these, how do you start to respond to an apology? I recently made an apology to a business contact who I think owes me a bigger apology, but I didn't want to do that. I'm like, I'm going to keep my side of the street clean. This business contact did not apologize to me nor acknowledge my apology. But I am not shocked I am 0% shocked. And I'm very proud that I made my apology. So, Susan, what about acknowledging apologies?
Susan McCarthy
Acknowledging apologies is the right thing to do. And yet a lot of us don't know how to do it. Maybe we've never seen it done. And it's so simple to say thank you. I accept your apology. To say that was really hard for you. I really appreciate getting that apology. You can say to someone, you know, do you accept my apology? We don't encourage people to ask for forgiveness, but you can say, is that an apology you can accept? Is there something I'm missing? Oh, so.
Marjorie Ingall
How much, how much, to your credit, Farai, that, like, even though you knew the other person owed you more, you did not bring it up? Because that's so hard.
Farai Chideya
That’s not on me, that's on them.
Marjorie Ingall
Yeah. And whenever like I workshopped my apologies with Susan when I have to make them because it's so hard for me to do that sort of step four about not making excuses because that's, I think, where you.
Farai Chideya
That's exactly what I was saying.
Marjorie Ingall
and that's where you would put in. Do you have anything to say to me? And like, you know, you can't and it's really hard. So, you know, yeah.
Farai Chideya
It was it was very much as a result of Sorry, Sorry, Sorry that I decided to make an apology. I knew probably would not be reciprocated and has not so far. And I am not holding my breath.
Marjorie Ingall
But it made you feel good, right?
Farai Chideya
You did. I was like. I was like. I'm a grown up.
Marjorie Ingall
I’m the better person. Yeah. I wanted to just say briefly some of the words that you showed your audience, you know, besides the sorry if sorry, but sorry you, which are all terrible whenever you hear the word obviously or regrettable or already a lot of times people say have already apologized or we've already moved on. You know, anytime somebody wants to talk about if you have hippie friends like I do, if they start talking about positivity or their own journey or context, all of that, nooo, bad, unfortunate, you know, those are not words that take ownership and that's what you're looking for in a good apology.
Farai Chideya
I love it so much. And. Okay, Susan. Unfortunately, sometimes you both know that you were in the wrong, which is this, you know, case that I was talking about. What are some tips for apologizing if you think it's like a standoff with both of you with your rhetorical guns pointed at each other.
Susan McCarthy
Well, you can't apologize for other people. You apologize for your part. And separate conversations is often the key. Like this is the conversation in which I apologize to you for my part in this. And you keep that separate from the part that you may not get where they apologize to you for their part in it.
Farai Chideya
Yeah, this was great advice from both of you on that reciprocal apology thing. So let's talk about something else, Burning Man. We're all very familiar with Burning Man, and Burning Man is a place where a lot of things go wrong. Yeah, there's a lot of bad behavior, like someone walking over to me with no pants and no underwear I was just like too early, no coffee…I believe it is called shirt cocking, which I also don't know that we can say on the radio, you know. You know.
Marjorie Ingall
We can say Porky Piggin it. We can take it out. Let's as somebody else said, it was called Winnie the Poohing.
Farai Chideya
YES, all of that. So so if I believe that I'm owed an apology at Burning Man, which I will never get, but also it's a place where I should look for that sometimes. Marjorie, are there places where you just you like, no matter what, you just can't expect it and shouldn't even ask for it. And it's not even something that people should apologize for?
Marjorie Ingall
Context is everything. There's always context.
Farai Chideya
Oh, wait.
Marjorie Ingall
Yes. Oh, this is a great way. Yes, We should definitely talk about Camp Playapology. Susan, you've had more addresses.
Farai Chideya
It’s a nickname for Burning Man. Yeah.
Susan McCarthy
Yeah. So at Burning Man, there's a camp. It's been there for some years now where they help people apologize and people come and they say, I maybe got busy on just the other side of a tent wall, and I want to apologize to my camp mate. Or, yeah, I put my wet backpack on top of the art car and I did some damage. I really need to apologize. How do I do it?
Marjorie Ingall
Sorry I borrowed your bike without asking. And also, I wasn't wearing pants at the time. Yeah.
Farai Chideya
And I left it. At, you know, a sound installation in the far Desert, and. I don't remember where it is.
Susan McCarthy
Well, let's just say that someone related to me borrowed a bike and put it in the middle of camp where they didn't think it would be stolen and it was stolen. And I eventually got an apology for that. But that required some explanation because they thought it was just any bike and they hadn't noticed that I had customized it.
Marjorie Ingall
Yeah, so Camp Playapology will help you workshop your apology. If you think the person doesn't want to hear from you, they will send a little emissary for you. You can guess. Wow, you know there's no commerce. But they will bring a flower, you know, fake flower, because you don't want to have your business. And then it's not so good. No, they will sing a sample of it. They have cards that you can fill out. And they'll also tell you when not to apologize, which I think is really good, because that's always a question, is you have to think sometimes you want to unburden yourself and sometimes you when you really think about it, you know that the other person does not want to hear from you. And in that case, it's about you. It's not about them. And a good apology should always be about the other person. And that's also why we say you don't get to ask for forgiveness when you're giving the apology, because asking for forgiveness is like asking for a gift. And it's rude to ask for a gift.
Farai Chideya
Well, I could go on with both of you all day, but now that I have laughed my insides raw, I think I'm just going to have to stop there. And I am not sorry for talking to both of you.
Susan McCarthy
Thank you. I'm not sorry a bit either.
Marjorie Ingall
We love you Farai, we could not be less sorry for being here.
Farai Chideya
That was Marjorie Ingall and Susan McCarthy, coauthors of Sorry, Sorry, Sorry: The Case for Good Apologies.
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. I'm host and executive producer Farai Chideya. Nina Spensley is also executive producer. Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. Emily J. Daly is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booking producer. Anoa Changa is our producer. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Kelsey Kudak is our fact checker.
This program is produced with support from the Luce Foundation, Open Society Foundation, Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.