This week, Farai interviews Jemele Hill, contributing writer for the Atlantic and author of the new book, Uphill: A Memoir on how her upbringing informs her impassioned writing and reporting. Then we receive insights on the 2022 midterm election results from political reporters across the nation such as Alex Nguyen with the Texas Tribune, Hibah Ansari with Minnesota’s Sahan Journal, and Lauren Gibbons of Bridge Michigan. And on our weekly political roundtable, Sippin’ the Political Tea, Farai is joined by Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior columnist for the Boston Globe and inaugural columnist for the Emancipator, and Sabrina Rodriguez, national politics reporter for the Washington Post.
Farai Chideya:
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Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Jemele Hill is a media luminary whose territory ranges from sports to politics. She's been named Journalist of the Year by the National Association of Black Journalists. She's a contributing writer at the Atlantic and host of Jemele Hill is Unbothered on Spotify.
Farai Chideya:
Jemele formerly co-anchored ESPN SportsCenter and has more than a million Twitter followers, which is particularly relevant because Hill called Donald Trump a white supremacist in a series of 2017 tweets criticizing his fitness as president. Public figures like former NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick supported her and people including then White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders called for Jemele to be fired from ESPN. Jemele's story begins in Detroit. She tells us where she comes from, who her people are, and who she is in Uphill, her debut memoir. Jemele, we are so happy to welcome you back to Our Body Politic.
Jemele Hill:
And I'm so glad to be here making a repeat appearance.
Farai Chideya:
When I read your book, I was thinking a lot of my grandmother because my grandmother started a memoir about her mother and she kept saying, "When my mother dies, I'll finish it." And her mother died and she never finished the book because there was some tough mother/daughter stuff and you have some tough mother/daughter stuff and some tough granddaughter/grandma stuff but you talk about it. How did you think about your ability to have a conversation around people in your life who you love, some of whom are still alive?
Jemele Hill:
It wasn't easy to dive this deep into the past just because I think I had gotten to a point where a lot of the things that I talk about in my book were things that I had frankly dealt with a while ago. And feeling like in a really good head space, I had to repeatedly ask myself whether or not I really wanted to go back and relive and kind of reopen some familiar wounds and really expose myself to an audience in a completely different way. But once I decided that I was going to, I guess for lack of a better way to put it, bear my soul in this. I knew that couldn't, for me, be a halfway proposition. That I had to go and really dig deep, get into some layers, have some conversations with my mother, which I had several for this book, just so I could not only get the stories accurate, but also to talk a little bit about our family history.
Jemele Hill:
And that was kind of difficult just in the sense of I had to ask my mother about the worst moments in her life and that's never an easy conversation to have with anybody, much less your own mother. So it was certainly a lot of soul searching and digging deep. But I'm happy to have gone through this process even though at times I was writing and crying at the same time.
Farai Chideya:
You are someone who I really admire for navigating the media world the way that you do in a way only you can. And I had no assumptions about what your memoir would be like, but it was very clear that you had done a lot of emotional work to be able to have conversations about things like your mother's personal history of having faced abuse and having used substances at different stages of her life. I was also really struck at one point you talk about how your grandmother, who you really love as you love your mother, spoke in ways about your mother that you didn't find helpful. So who are you in relationship to your mother and your grandmother and who were these two women in relationship to each other?
Jemele Hill:
Well, for my grandmother, her and I, we were very close. Our birthdays are one day apart. And I think kind of what happens, and I know to some extent this is very common among any grandparent and grandchild relationships. Whereas the grandparents sometimes and the things that they didn't exactly get right when they were parenting, they sort of tried to have a do over with the grandkids. And though my grandmother never flat out said that or outright said that, I had that sense from her that a lot of the mistakes that she made with my mother, she did not want to make with me and certainly wanted to make sure that we had a much different relationship than she had with my mother. And I guess you could say that was kind of good and bad. It was good because I clearly benefited, me and my grandmother were very close, but I'm sure for my mother, for her to see that it was probably sometimes difficult.
Jemele Hill:
My mother was never jealous of our relationship and she never presented it to me in that way ever or made me feel that way. But I know there had to be a part of her that was wishing that she got the version of my grandmother that I got. And I think because they were at odds and they had a difficult relationship at times that was quite turbulent. I was the one who was caught in the middle of a lot of this. And that was not always a very easy position to be in because these are two women that I love the most and I could see the pain and the unhealed trauma in their relationship, even though as a kid I didn't know that was unhealed trauma and pain that was showing up. But I think because of their history and because that never really came to a resolution, the fact that my grandmother didn't believe her when my mother told her that she was molested by my grandmother's brother. That betrayal frankly was never healed and it wasn't healed when my grandmother passed in 2010.
Jemele Hill:
And because it was such an open wound all the time, I think it was just hard for them to get their relationship to a really healthy place. They were always in each other's lives. My mother, she never, ever gave thought to abandoning my grandmother. The love was real and the love was definitely there. But when they hit those rocky times, they were so much more rocky because of the unhealed trauma that was between the two of them.
Farai Chideya:
And you paint such vivid pictures of your mother and grandmother and at some point I'd like to write about my family. And I think I still have a little bit of that kind of instinct that my grandmother had, which is like, "Well, let's wait till everyone's dead." But then you never get around to it. I'm assuming you have, but have you talked to your mom about the book? Has she read it? Have you two had a conversation?
Jemele Hill:
My mother read the book when it was still in the phase that things could be changed. So she read it. My husband was actually the first person who read it. My mother was the second because I wanted to prepare her for what was in it. Also, the journalist in me, I wanted to make sure I got everything right, of course. And it was my way of just having an early gauge of how she might feel about seeing things in print. Sometimes there are people who respond differently. They could tell you something verbally, but seeing it in print kind of sometimes hits them much differently. And my mother responded really positively and I had no doubt that she was ready to talk about these things because if she wasn't, I don't even think the book would've made it as far as it did.
Jemele Hill:
But she's kind of been waiting for a chance, I think, to feel some agency in her own story. Maybe not, maybe she didn't imagine it would come out in a book, but I think she just has been kind of ready for this empowering chapter in her life. So she responded well to it. And now that the book is out, I don't know what kind of feedback she may be getting from her inner circle because I'm sure there are people in her life that maybe do not know the details as I laid them out in this book. But we did Red Table Talk together and my mother was great. It was a very therapeutic and healing conversation. And I think what she most wanted is for people who have been in abusive situations to know obviously that they weren't alone, but also to know the power and the strength of coming through that. She's a survivor and I think she's very proud of that. And now I think the world is being able to witness how she was able to pull herself through some really, really tough moments.
Farai Chideya:
And when you go into the tough moments she faced, you talked about her being molested as a child, being raped as an adult, substance abuse. And then just recently you wrote about her for the Atlantic, about her being a conservative and what she taught you about Black conservatives. So how do you put together the different pieces of who your mom was and who your mom is and learn things about maybe other Black conservatives today? Or is that too much of a stretch?
Jemele Hill:
No, it's not. I guess like every person in this world, my mother is complicated. You know what I'm saying? So the funny thing is that I think... And this is what conservatives, frankly white conservatives, miss about Black people is that generally I think there are a lot of Black people who are more conservative than they have imagined.
Farai Chideya:
Like much of my family.
Jemele Hill:
Exactly. Black people have been hearing that messaging from the people in our community forever. The respectability politics, they run deep in the Black community. It's just that Black people don't like the racism. And that is why we get labeled as being progressive or we get labeled as being liberals. It's like, no, it's not that Black people reject conservative principles, they reject racism. And I think with my mother, she's from an old school generation, she's a Baby Boomer and they see things a completely different way coming directly out of the civil rights era. And I think because of my mother's deep faith and her attachment to the Christian religion, it has shaped and formed a lot of her political and personal views. And that's through the lens in which she sees things and politically we could not be more different in that respect.
Jemele Hill:
It's just ironic because obviously one of the things I'm known for is going after Donald Trump and our little back and forth. And I think people probably, when they read this book, would be surprised to find out that she is from the mentality that you always respect the office of the president no matter who is in it. And my mentality is it's hard to respect the office of the president when the person in the office doesn't respect the office of the president. So we had two very different viewpoints on that. And though my mother definitely supported my right to speak out and everything like that, initially that wasn't really the case. And so I think how she sees the world and seeing it through that particular lens, I think that's why it has made for us having some interesting conversations.
Farai Chideya:
That was Jemele Hill, contributing writer for the Atlantic, an author of the new book Uphill: A Memoir. Coming up next, more from Jemele Hill on who she's writing for and why she loves her hometown, Detroit. Plus, local reporters across the country on what they saw covering the midterms.
Lauren Gibbons:
We have a completely different State House and Senate than we probably would've had if the legislature had still done it. And then there's still a lot of questions out there about what this means for the future.
Farai Chideya:
And the big political picture on the national scale. That's on Our Body Politic. Welcome back to Our Body Politic. If you're just joining us, we're talking to Jemele Hill about her debut memoir, Uphill. She's a contributing writer for the Atlantic and host of Jemele Hill is Unbothered on Spotify. In her memoir, she digs into weighty issues including abortion. Here's the rest of our conversation. Who do you feel like you're writing to? The Atlantic is one of the best publications in America, but who do you think you're explaining things to when you explain about your mom's conservatism?
Jemele Hill:
Well, I feel like I'm, I guess, talking to in many ways the white conservatives who get this wrong about Black people not understanding that it's not conservative principles in their nature that are a turnoff to Black people because we've been hearing respectability politics from people in our community our entire lives. And so when I wrote that piece for The Atlantic, it was a way of giving people a window into how a lot of Black people think. So I hope that people were able to glean something from that and learn something.
Farai Chideya:
Absolutely. I did want to ask about another really intense experience you talk about in the book, which is an abortion that you had in your twenties and you talk about not feeling remorse or regret and not looking back. Abortion has been with humans almost as long as we've been humans it seems like. And certainly in the modern era, it's been something we've fought about back and forth. What would you say to young women today if they're facing that decision about how they process it and what they need to take into account?
Jemele Hill:
What I would say to them is, one, they don't have anything to be ashamed about for even considering it. Because I know that there is this narrative that you're a bad person or you're somehow failing from a moral standpoint if you even consider having an abortion. And one of the reasons that I wanted to disclose mine in this memoir, it wasn't necessarily related to the timing of the undoing of Roe versus Wade. I had made the decision to disclose that before then. But what I certainly noticed about the conversation around abortion is that so much of it was framed from an extreme standpoint, meaning about rape and incest victims and those women facing a medical emergency. And those are important conversations to have, don't get me wrong, but everybody who has an abortion is not in a traumatic situation.
Jemele Hill:
And on top of that, every woman who has an abortion or considers one shouldn't have to be in a traumatic situation. Because I think in this country, when we talk about abortion, a lot of times it's from the standpoint of who deserves to get an abortion or who deserves to have abortion access. And by me telling my story, given my very public position, I think it's important to take the layer of shame off of it and to show other women that if you get an abortion, in its absent a traumatic situation, there's nothing for you to feel ashamed about. There should be no shame whatsoever if you decide to do what's right for your body and for your life. I think it's important that young women understand that this is your decision, whatever you decide is the right decision.
Farai Chideya:
Let's talk about another great love of your life, Detroit. I have had the pleasure of listening to you give a speech, a MLK Day speech. And although you talked about a lot of things that was clear that your love of Detroit was one of the key themes of what you spoke about. What does Detroit mean to you? What does being from Detroit mean to you? What does Detroit as it is mean to you and what do you hope for Detroit?
Jemele Hill:
I think anybody who came from the city would probably say this is that Detroit people are just built different, just are. And it's a tough city, it's a resilient city. It's a prideful city for sure. But most of us growing up, the only time we ever saw Detroit on the news, it was usually because the murder rate had just been released and Detroit was either number one on that list or somewhere in the top five for sure. And I think because we are very aware of how people perceive our city, that makes us hug it tighter, love it more, and take more pride in being from there. I would not be who I am today had I not come from this city. So it's fused in my DNA and I have a love and an affection for Detroit that runs very deep. I also think too, especially for Black Detroiters, who have seen Detroit go through so many phases. I think people probably forget that Detroit used to be kind of the crown jewel of America, the auto industry.
When it was thriving at its height, Detroit had well over a million people and was considered one of the best cities in the world because of the auto industry and knowing what we're capable of and knowing that history, I think it makes us just put on that much harder for our city.
Jemele Hill:
And what I hope for Detroit, especially now that the city really has recovered quite a bit. When I go there now, and particularly if I'm staying in downtown, I'm just amazed at the growth, at the change and even out in the neighborhoods. It is funny, some of the neighborhoods that used to be considered on the dilapidated side, many of them have been refurbished and they now have cute neighborhood nicknames that didn't exist when I was growing up. I'm like, they didn't use to call it this. Now it's this district or that. So it is good to see where it's thriving but like always you get concerned about ultimately how does this change the identity of Detroit. I noticed this certainly in the last five years, particularly since I usually stay downtown when I'm in Detroit. And you go in a lot of places downtown in different restaurants and I might be the only Black person in there and that is not how Detroit used to be.
Jemele Hill:
So I think people who live in DC or Chicago or other places, Black people can identify with this feeling is that you definitely want the change, you want the investment, you want the growth. But what you don't want to see are the people who for years put in a certain amount of sweat equity, you don't want them then pushed out of it and kept on the outside or frozen out of all of the success. And unfortunately, I think there's probably too much of that in Detroit now, particularly in those areas that have now come alive because Detroiters should be rewarded for their faithfulness to this city. And so I don't want a situation where the things that attracted people to Detroit are also the first things they push out when you have other people sort of trying to change the identity of what the city is. From a leadership standpoint, I think, it kind of starts with not being so quick to sell out for growth.
Jemele Hill:
Growth is important and I'm not saying turn down growth, but I think whatever growth is introduced into a city has to include the people who actually live there and the people who have given this city their heart and have put in the sweat equity, they have to be included in the process. Don't come there to build something and then hire everybody outside of the city that you're in. Make sure that the residents there and the people there, that they have some personal investment in whatever it is you're trying to do. And that every project or every development should be in collaboration with and not just some kind of takeover. So whatever are the cultural norms and practices of the city, you have to respect those.
Farai Chideya:
Well, Jemele, I could talk to you all day, but I would just tell people to go read your book Uphill. You really come from a place of strength and vulnerability and I really appreciate you sharing your story with the world. Thanks Jemele.
Jemele Hill:
Thank you. I appreciate you having me.
Farai Chideya:
That was Jemele Hill, author of Uphill: A Memoir and contributing writer for the Atlantic. You're listening to our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Where we come from shapes what matters to us and our politics. So we're talking to three local reporters about what they've learned from voters in the field while covering the 2022 midterms. First we go to Minnesota. Hibah Ansari, a reporter with the Sahan Journal, covered a historic victory for Black women in the North Star state.
Hibah Ansari:
Over the course of the last few months were some really exciting state senate races in Minnesota. So the state of Minnesota had never elected a Black woman to the state Senate in 164 years of statehood. This time around, there were a number of candidates who are Black women that were running to represent parts of Minnesota in the state Senate. And three of them won on Tuesday, two of them were now the youngest women also elected to the state Senate. So it really just revealed a lot about how important it is to have representation of all kinds in your state legislature and how all of these women who won in the State House and in the state Senate as well, who come from different backgrounds are really going to be able to bring in that experience and shape policy for all Minnesotans and they have that lived experience that is going to inform their work.
Farai Chideya:
Ansari also dug into the different visions of public safety in the Hennepin County attorney's race.
Hibah Ansari:
With the Hennepin County attorney's race, for example, the winner of that race was a former chief public defender, Mary Moriarty, she's white. She ran against Martha Holton Dimick, a retired judge, was a Black woman. And that said, both of their approaches to the position would have been very different. I think that's a race that really reveals a lot of the conversations we are hearing now about public safety and as a future of our public safety policy is going to be one of progress that really looks at overhauling the public safety system. Or are we going to try to stick to the status quo and make reforms where we can while still maintaining the system and making sure that it is also working for everyone at the end of the day. I think that's a conversation people are having, not just in the Hennepin County attorneys race, but even in just their regular everyday conversations about what the future of public safety in Minneapolis and in Minnesota is going to be like.
Hibah Ansari:
It is again, really important to have people who can bring those lived experiences to the table. For example, in the Hennepin County Sheriff's race, there were two Black candidates running. The woman who won, Dawanna Witt, has told us about how she's had members of her family face incarceration. And so she's coming to that position with that lived experience informing her work. It's really interesting to see two candidates who again, come from these two different schools of thought of how we should be approaching public safety. Where is a system not working for people at all versus how can we reform the existing system? You also see people running on these differing platforms at the city level as well. It really is front of mind for anyone running anywhere in Minnesota and people really resonate with one or the other. So that's kind of why you see these really close margins in these very important races, especially something like the Hennepin County attorney.
Hibah Ansari:
And now that public safety has become such a huge part of our conversations, that race became so important and people were really eager to learn about the candidates running in that race and what they actually have the power to do. It's one of the most powerful positions in government, especially when it comes to creating public safety and criminal justice policies.
Farai Chideya:
Next up is Texas, where Alex Nguyen, a reporting fellow with the Texas Tribune covered ballot initiatives to decriminalize marijuana.
Alex Nguyen:
Ground Game Texas, which is a progressive group, did a test case back in May with Austin and that was successful. So they partnered with local organizations in five cities and this is possible because the cities have home rule law. So if the law isn't explicitly forbidden by the state or federal laws and is possible for the city to amend laws or create ordinances by themselves. And I think on the ground some prosecutors or police department have kind of deprioritized arresting or charging for low level marijuana possession. But it's one thing to have that, another thing to have a lot of say, we are not ticketing or arresting people for possessing these things. And so I think we are looking to see what the implementation process look like. But the voters in these five city overwhelmingly voted for these ballot proposition.
Farai Chideya:
According to Nguyen, many grassroots organizations targeted voter outreach to AAPI voters.
Alex Nguyen:
A lot of the focus was on language support because there's just so much diversity within the community and even though some communities do received official language support. So for example, the Vietnamese community do receive some official language support in certain cities because they're now the third largest or most spoken language in the state, but that's obviously not the case, for example, Korean community. And so we saw a lot of effort to translate materials or voting guides into multiple different languages, AAPI organization hosting candidate forums with different candidates. I think also several civil rights organizations also did language support for voter protection hotline or kind of translate those kind of [inaudible 00:27:02] as well, even though we're still waiting to see what the data looked like on AAPI voters in this election. We know that the AAPI voters block is definitely growing and at the same time the community is very diverse and not a monolith. So there will always need to be effort from both the Democrats and the Republicans who really invest in outreach and to best support the multitude of ethnic groups and communities within the AAPI voters.
Farai Chideya:
And that brings us to our last state, Michigan. Lauren Gibbons, a political reporter with Bridge Michigan, reported on the impact of the state's independent redistricting commission.
Lauren Gibbons:
The district's changed pretty substantially, but it showed just how much this independent commission really changed how the political structure in Michigan works. We have a completely different State House and Senate then we probably would've had if the legislature had still done it. And then there's still a lot of questions out there about what this means for the future, particularly in the Detroit area. Where a lot of these districts now spread out from Detroit into the suburbs and also just generally for Michigan. Does this slim democratic majority hold? I also think the other thing that really impacted Michigan politics this year was the abortion issue. We had proposal three on the ballot that was a major motivator for a lot of voters, and this is the first time in decades that Michigan has seen a democratic trifecta. And I think it'll be really fascinating because while they do have the majority now, it's a very slim majority and a lot of these districts were extremely competitive.
Lauren Gibbons:
So these democrats will have to go back to voters in two years or four years depending on whether they're in the house or the Senate and say this is what I did in the legislature. So you're definitely seeing a big push by a lot of Democrats, the advancing, the progressive causes that have just not gotten gearings in the legislature for decades at this point. The Senate, in particular, has been in Republican control since 1984. So I would imagine definitely we'll be hearing a lot of progressives and democratic causes will come up.
Farai Chideya:
While there was support for election deniers within the Republican party, Gibbons said Michigan voters were not impressed.
Lauren Gibbons:
I think were the biggest influence beliefs about 2020 occurred was in the selection of nominees at the convention level for Republicans specifically. So there were a few candidates, a piece for Attorney General and Secretary of State, and the two Trump endorsed candidates who had both played a pretty big role in alleging fraud occurred in Michigan. Unproven claims, none of those claims were held up in court or by any of the many audits investigations that happened. So I would say the biggest impact was at the Republican level, where delegates were choosing those nominees. At the electoral level when voters had a chance, these candidates were beat by wide margins. We saw that especially in the Secretary of States race, where Kristina Karamo was one of the major backers of election fraud claims in Michigan. She focused that campaign in large part on her concerns with Michigan's electoral process and voting procedures. And ultimately, she didn't raise as much money as Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson did. That message just didn't resonate with the general election voters.
Farai Chideya:
That was Hibah Ansari, reporter with the Sahan Journal. Alex Nguyen, reporting fellow with the Texas Tribune. And Lauren Gibbons, State House Reporter with Bridge Michigan, weighing in on the midterm election results around the country. Coming up next, our weekly round table Sippin' the Political Tea with Sabrina Rodriguez, national politics reporter for the Washington Post and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior columnist for the Boston Globe and inaugural columnist for the Emancipator. That's on Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. Each week on the show we bring you a round table called Sippin' the Political Tea and the tea is pretty hot this week. Joining me is Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior columnist for the Boston Globe and inaugural columnist for the Emancipator. Welcome back, Kimberly.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
Good to be with you.
Farai Chideya:
And we are also welcoming back, Sabrina Rodriguez. National politics reporter for the Washington Post. Hey, Sabrina.
Sabrina Rodriguez:
Hey, it's great to be here.
Farai Chideya:
So former President Trump, twice impeached and currently navigating a host of legal troubles, has announced he is running for president again. He has thrust us into the 2024 presidential cycle before we have even really had a chance to process the 2022 midterm elections, let alone bathe ourselves in the aloe of soothing, non-political talk. Let's listen to a little bit of what the former president had to say.
Trump:
We're in grave trouble. This is not a task for a politician or a conventional candidate. This is a task for a great movement that embodies the courage, confidence, and the spirit of the American people.
Farai Chideya:
So Sabrina, I listened in real time to this and there was a lot of coveting about the border and about the economy and about Russia and everything was doom. That's what I heard. What did you hear?
Sabrina Rodriguez:
I really heard the same from former President Trump, and I think a lot of people did. I was following along listening to his announcement and saw the anger in his words. We've seen Trump throughout the years and in his speeches and stuff, really lean into anger when talking about how he views the situation in the country but I think it was more so than in the past. And one of the biggest takeaways that I had from it was sort of seeing that he was low energy in the process. It seemed like a bitter Trump that was making that announcement with the electorate, seeing the losses that Republicans had in the midterms and questioning whose fault might that be.
Farai Chideya:
Kimberly, I want to play you a little bit more of the speech.
Trump:
There's a job for tens of millions of proud people working together from all across the land and from all walks of life, young and old, Black and white, Hispanic and Asian. Many of whom we have brought together for the very, very first time.
Farai Chideya:
And I thought this was fascinating because former President Trump did in fact gain some voters of color in his 2020 race as opposed to 2016. But what do you think of this whole painting of the multiracial 2024 coalition?
Sabrina Rodriguez:
I think yes, while you're right, there was some movement among Latino men and he also got a handful of more Black men. But if you look at the data, Donald Trump's support came largely from white voters. He got a larger share of white women, for example, in 2020 than he did in 2016. Those are the voters that he's talking to when he's talking about crime in false and misleading ways. When he is talking about immigration and other fear points in his rhetoric. He knows where his base is very well and I don't believe that he's trying to form some multicultural broad race base. I think he's just trying to win.
Farai Chideya:
And I want to play one more piece of audio as we talk about former President Trump's run in 2024. Conservative writer Kevin Williamson came on the New York Times podcast, The Argument. He also wrote a piece called Why Trump Could Win Again. But here's a little bit of him from the argument.
Kevin D. Williamson:
Trump's connection with his people is not based on winning elections, it's essentially a religious movement. They really do have this kind of supernatural, metaphysical personal connection with him, and that is not something that's going to be lightly brushed aside.
Farai Chideya:
One thing that people have been tracking is how the evangelical movement, particularly white evangelicals, have embraced candidates like Herschel Walker who don't seem to actually live the values that they are voting for. They have been tactical voters here. But I think that this broader question of a religious movement, meaning having faith in Donald Trump aside from any of his accomplishments, is a really interesting one. What stands out about that analogy to you Sabrina and then Kimberly?
Sabrina Rodriguez:
The remarkable thing here is knowing that prior to 2016, Trump was not the most religious person by any means to make inroads first with top evangelical leaders and then making it with voters. It is interesting to see how that has lasted. For me, the big question is can someone else replicate that? As frustrations rise with Trump, if some of the biggest evangelical leaders in the country say, "Maybe this is not the best calculus, maybe there is someone else that can deliver our top priorities. Whether them personally match our values, but if they can advocate for the things we want in Washington." Is there someone else that they would be willing to support?
Farai Chideya:
And Kimberly, what about the idea of politics as a religion? People make all sorts of analogies, politics as a sport, politics is whatever. What about this idea that politics can become this kind of messianic attachment?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
I think that there is something to that. And I think when we think about politics in over the last decade or so, it has become more tribal. We've certainly seen that same thing with politics and the way that people talk about it. And Trump is a charismatic leader, like a Jerry Falwell, like someone else who has risen in the cults of personality in that way. So I think Donald Trump was custom made for that moment and he helped foment that kind of division and tribalism to fit it even more for that task that he himself knew he could probably be good at.
Farai Chideya:
So pivoting to the midterms, Kimberly, there have been people like Republican Senator Mitt Romney saying that abortion played a bigger role than anticipated, other people anticipated it would play a big role. You had economic narratives, you had any number of dynamics operating. What is your sort of big takeaway from how the midterms have broken so far?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
I think what we learned from this is that there was a number of issues that galvanized voters, particularly young voters. Young voters saw this election as particularly existential. And I believe that abortion after the Supreme Court's decision and Dobbs, which overturned Roe, was a big motivator in that. We saw in places like Michigan and Kentucky where abortion was on the ballot itself won in those states. I think it's hard to, the way polling goes, the way it was really hard to tell what an impact abortion would have is that it seems to assume a one issue voter. When you see these polls, it's like the number one thing is the economy, it's inflation. Abortion is three or four, and that gives you the impression that it's less important when voters are actually voting for all of the above.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
And I think the fact that with young people, it was about student loan forgiveness, it was about abortion access, it was about climate it was about a number of things. In The Emancipator, we call the young voters of color, the other swing voters because their choice is either to vote democratic or stay home. And they chose the former in the midterms.
Farai Chideya:
And Sabrina, we interviewed, for example, Maxwell Alejandro Frost, who became the first Gen Z member of Congress. There were a number of LGBTQ people elected, two lesbians in gubernatorial races and up and down different ballots. So what takeaways are you seeing here?
Sabrina Rodriguez:
There is an increasingly diverse electorate. There's no question about it, but people are complicated. The diverse electorate has many interests. We all live in the same country and we're all voting over many different issues that impact us. You need to get precinct level data and more data as the days come. The preliminary figures do show us that Democrats, particularly in some of the big swing states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, really benefited from a strong turnout of young voters. And I think that's something that needs to be a key part of the narrative when we're talking about these midterms going forward.
Farai Chideya:
And can you also tell us a little bit about the article you wrote about the slight decline in voters of color supporting democratic candidates?
Sabrina Rodriguez:
The big thing for me is always, two things can be true at the same time, and it can be that voters of color overwhelmingly supported Democrats or really helped in their victory and Republicans can have also made some level of inroads. Again, I always put the caveat that exit polls can be an incomplete picture and that again, as weeks pass, we're going to have a fuller picture of what the results were. But it did show us that among Asian American, Black and Latino voters each separately, there was a slippage in support among Democrats, still majority voted for Democratic candidates. But there is a clear message that Democrats need to be more attentive to these voters. And I frame it that way because oftentimes it becomes a blame game of, "Oh, we're going to blame Latino voters because not enough came out to vote or over 90% of Black voters supported Democrats but we're going to blame the 2% slippage on these voters."
Sabrina Rodriguez:
And it really is on the candidates and the parties to be more attentive to that. I consistently hear consultants for the Democratic party and kind of some leaders maybe pay a little less attention to suburban white voters and a little more attention to voters of color who are clearly your coalition to win.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Sippin' the Political Tea on Our Body Politic. I am Farai Chideya. We are unpacking the 2022 midterm results with Sabrina Rodriguez, national politics reporter for the Washington Post and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior columnist for the Boston Globe and inaugural columnist for the Emancipator.
Farai Chideya:
So let's talk a little bit about the mechanics of voting and elections, which have been very contested. Numbers of election workers who operate in a nonpartisan manner have been targeted with death threats. This election seems to have been a mixed bag. We didn't see any major instances of violence or threats at polling places. There was a guy who showed up with a knife at a polling place, various other things like that. Maricopa County Sheriff Paul Penzone made it clear that he would not tolerate disruption or harassment of election workers or voters in the Phoenix area, for example.
Maricopa County Sheriff Paul Penzone:
I will not, I professed this and I will continue to, I will not allow for nor will I stand for any threat to this facility, the votes or the people. So we're not going to wait for you to do harm and then try to react to it. We're going to prepare in advance so that you can't do harm.
Farai Chideya:
And Maricopa County, which is the former stomping ground of the man who was President Trump's first pardon, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, has been a place of high tensions. It's also a state where Kari Lake lost her race. What did you make, Kimberly, of election security, election interference and what we learned from these midterms?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
So I think we learned a couple things. The fact that there were no major problems, that the election went off without a hitch. That was a real win over election denialism. I think it was such a decisive win that you even saw candidates conceding in a way that they didn't do in 2020, which is really important for democracy in Arizona. Maricopa County has this big countywide election counting process that takes days or weeks. I give props to officials there for prepping folks to be prepared to wait that long, but that allowed things like the denialism from folks, like Donald Trump, to claim falsely that something nefarious was going on when it really wasn't.
Farai Chideya:
And Sabrina, how did you track or make sense of these questions of election denial, the Lake defeat in the gubernatorial election in Arizona? How do you read the tea leaves?
Sabrina Rodriguez:
It was a good night for democracy, I would say, if we have to sum it up overall with the midterm results to some extent. There was a big question around some of these candidates that had basically said that they weren't going to necessarily accept the results if they didn't go their way. So to see folks that either had said they weren't going to accept results or had been very coy about what their plans were, one by one accept defeat, put out the standard statement, what used to be normal. What should not be surprising of people just saying thank you to my opponent, thank you to the people that supported me. We lost. It sucks. It is what it is. Seeing all these folks admit defeat also just shows that if they have future political ambitions and stuff, clearly this is part of the calculation that it did not benefit them to challenge the results. It's welcome news that people don't think it's a good idea to be challenging election results at this point after everything we've seen in the past couple year.
Farai Chideya:
And Kimberly, you wrote about the threat of voter suppression for the Boston Globe. Tell us what you've been tracking.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
What we're saying is right. This was a good election for democracy. Election denialism was way down except for just a handful of circumstances. But at the same time, we should not forget that there are a lot of other ways that the vote count or voting has been made more difficult by people. Of course, we just had redistricting. Where in a lot of states, really terrible political and racial gerrymanders were allowed to be in place and that made it much harder for people of color to have their votes count. Those votes were diluted in places like North Carolina and Florida, and we still also had public officials flouting federal authority when it comes to the Voting Rights Act. You saw the governors in Missouri and Florida prevent DOJ monitors, who have been monitoring elections for decades to enter the polling places there.
Farai Chideya:
How was that even legal?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
It's not, it's not legal. But who's going to enforce that law when we have a Supreme Court that has step by step eviscerated piece after piece of the Voting Rights Act? So I think they felt pretty confident that they were able to do that and that they would survive a legal challenge if one is mounted. I think people just still need to be aware that voting rights are still fragile in many ways, and though we had a good election this time around, the next time different things can come up and it can look differently.
Farai Chideya:
Given the narrow margins of party victory in the House and Senate, what do you see ahead, Sabrina? What are you keeping your eyes on in terms of Congress fights for leadership, both inter and inter party issues?
Sabrina Rodriguez:
At this point of the House Republican majority, it's going to be very narrow and it's going to make it really hard for them to agree on anything. I am a skeptic of Congress getting much done in the next two years and obviously the Georgia runoff is still outstanding. So there's a question of the 51st vote with Senator Raphael Warnock if he wins. But either way, a Democratic majority in the Senate and a Republican majority in the House, there is a real question about their ability to work together. What are things on the agenda that they could potentially collaborate on?
Farai Chideya:
And Kimberly wrapping it up, what do you see ahead or what are you looking to find out?
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
I think Sabrina is exactly right. I think outside from the things that they must deal with things like the debt ceiling, it's going to be really tough with these very, very narrow majorities in both houses, frankly, for people to get stuff done. We saw, even when Democrats had a narrow majority in both houses, it was difficult to get things done. You'll really see where people's priorities are. But I think Democrats in particular will be motivated because in 2024, it's not just a presidential year, but the map for the Senate races is much, much harder for Democrats. So I think they will be pushing to try to do things. I think you'll still see not much cooperation on both sides, so I think we have to buckle up and see what happens.
Farai Chideya:
Well, we will buckle up. It is going to probably be a bumpy two years, but we are certainly here on this show, in it to win it in terms of providing information, and we can't control anything else. We can just give people information just like both of you do, and we will all make our choices. I'm so grateful to have talked to both of you. Thanks, Kimberly.
Kimberly Atkins Stohr:
Thank you for having me.
Farai Chideya:
And thank you Sabrina.
Sabrina Rodriguez:
Thanks for having me.
Farai Chideya:
That was Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior columnist for the Boston Globe and inaugural columnist for the Emancipator and Sabrina Rodriguez, national politics reporter for the Washington Post.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I’m host and executive producer, Farai Chideya. Jonathan Blakely is our executive producer. Nina Spensley is also executive producer.Emily J. Daly is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister and Traci Caldwell are our booking producers. Steve Lack and Anoa Changa are our producers. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Kelsey Kudak is our fact-checker.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Lauren Schild and engineered by Archie Moore and Mike Gohler.
Farai Chideya:
This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.