This week, Our Body Politic features the podcast 'As She Rises'. Hosted by Grace Lynch, 'As She Rises' combines locally-written poetry with expert interviews to ground listeners and contextualize the monumental impacts of climate change in locations across the globe. In Louisiana, poet Jerika Marchan and activist Colette Pichon Battle describe living through Hurricane Katrina and fighting for climate justice. U.S. Poet Laureate Joy Harjo and activist Casey Camp-Horinek explore Indigenous Sovereignty and man-made earthquakes in Oklahoma. And on our weekly roundtable Sippin' the Political Tea, Farai is joined by Errin Haines of the 19th and OBP legal analyst, Georgetown Law Professor Tiffany Jeffers, to break down what's happening in Georgia and the US regarding voting rights; plus a discussion about bodily autonomy.
© 2022 Wonder Media Network, LLC, Provided under license.
Farai Chideya:
Hi folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple podcast. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting the show. If you're able, you can find out more at ourbodypolitic.com/donate. We are here for you, with you, and because of you. Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. For the month of January, we're bringing you independent voices from the podcasting world in our series, Our Body Politic Presents. Each week you'll hear a different show take us on a journey of both news and information and narrative sound. This week we're featuring the work of, As She Rises, a podcast from Wonder Media Network that opens up space to breathe through the trauma of the climate crisis. It's infused with poetry as well as science and history. And host and producer, Grace Lynch, focuses on the journeys of indigenous women and women of color across the United States, from Hawaii to Minnesota. We start with than excerpt of the very first episode of As She Rises, centered on Louisiana, The Bayou.
Speaker:
You ready? They're filming, come on. Wait a minute, you’re in New Orleans. Come on, darling.
Jerika Marchan:
The story survived upstream of me. This, the river bloated, turned outward on itself. A breakthrough wide, a more natural state. Forget the walls. The artificial banks setting a thin route south into the Gulf. River found its mouth lacking, made itself big to accommodate the search. Water by volume, water by the ton for miles, fills its container, won't be kept out.
Grace Lynch:
I grew up at the base of the Salish Sea in Olympia, Washington. Instead of running around lawns or bicycling on sidewalks, I spent my childhood roaming the tidal flats. Recently when I was home, I was standing out in the water with my dad, looking down at the sand dollars at my feet. And he said, "You know, Grace, I haven't seen a starfish here in years." It almost sounded like a line from a cheesy horror film. ", she's been dead for a thousand years," or something like that. But unfortunately, climate change and its far reaching tentacles are far from fiction.
Grace Lynch:
Even in my relatively short lifetime, I've seen climate change transform my home, from the changing ecosystem on the tidal flats to severe weather patterns. We all heard about the crushing heat wave that's swept across the Pacific Northwest this summer. It's estimated that nearly one billion small sea creatures were killed on the beaches, scorched under the heat dome. The summer prior, you couldn't even see across the bay due to smoke from nearby wildfires, and the winter storms are longer and wetter than ever before. In a state known for rain, this past January, was the third wettest month on record.
Grace Lynch:
My parents' home faces directly into the weather. The winter winds and diagonal rain swell right up to their windows. After another long winter, my parents called to tell me that they were selling my childhood home. Tired of fighting with mother nature, they're moving on and relocating.
Grace Lynch:
The idea that anyone is immune to climate change is laughable. But if you're at all like me, you might not have chosen to look all that closely. Whenever climate change comes up in conversation, I immediately get overwhelmed. Between the doomsday scenarios and all the numbers and statistics being pushed on you, it's no wonder some of us aren't prioritizing this issue in the way that we should, myself included. So I figured I'd try and take a different approach to the conversation.
Grace Lynch:
I thought about what could help build pathways to empathy. For me, that stories of people who are fighting to preserve their home, just trying to save their corner of the planet. I might not know how to act in the face of global warming, but I can advocate to protect the boundary waters in Minnesota. Through poetry, I can begin to empathize with those looking at an unrecognizable Alaska. I can raise awareness of the reforestation efforts in Puerto Rico. And in doing so, perhaps I can find a little bit of hope.
Grace Lynch:
From Wonder Media Network, I'm Grace Lynch, and this is As She Rises. We're going to try and personalize the elusive magnitude of climate change. This series will explore the vast United States through the experiences of local climate activists and poets. Today, we're in New Orleans, Louisiana. The poet you heard from at the top of the show is Jerika Marchan, reading from her collection, SWOLE. I wanted to talk to Jerika because while her poetry speaks to her experience in Hurricane Katrina, it also touches on broader themes, like how these climate events shape our concept of time.
Jerika Marchan:
I came to New Orleans in 2001, with my two parents. We are immigrants from the Philippines. Thinking about climate change is a part of being in a town like this. You feel it in the summertime, where every summer feels like the hottest summer on record. It's hard not to think about your body at all times in this city. You just feel everything.
Jerika Marchan:
In terms of Hurricane Katrina, it's how we tell time. People say before the storm and after the storm. Before the storm, things were like this or my home was like this, or I had this many pairs of shoes, talking about the things that they had and then the things that they lost. Not so much in terms of loss, but in terms of the people we were before Katrina.
Jerika Marchan:
I remember whistling. The wind had gotten so violent that it was shuddering through my house, and I could hear it whistling through the cracks in the house. And it was the eeriest sound. There had been a lot of pine trees... Like young pine trees in my parents' backyard, and I could hear them snapping... Is similar to the sound of regular pencils snapping except a thousand times larger, and your home and your body is so close to those falling trees. I hear the voice of Garland Robinette.
Garland Robinette:
For those trying to help us people out there, stay with us. We're your lighthouse gang in this moment of darkness.
Jerika Marchan:
When we had lost power, his radio show was the only radio show on. And I remember people calling into his radio show, trying to piece out what was going on. When you were in the storm or you were in the city, we had no clue what was happening. I do think about leaving New Orleans as an exercise, but it's just an exercise.
Speaker:
Well there is a house in New Orleans, stay in the rising tide.
Jerika Marchan:
Never been serious about it. I'm fully committed to staying here for as long as it'll let me stay here.
Speaker:
And it’s been a ruin, of many old poor boys. Thank God, I am loved.
Speaker:
Thank you very much. Very appreciated. Thank you.
Grace Lynch:
I love how Jerika phrases that. "For as long as it'll let me stay here," because more and more, it's not up to us. And when major storms do happen, it can mean permanent dislocation. After Katrina, people didn't come back. Arguably the hardest hit region of the city was the Lower Ninth Ward. Only a third of its residents returned.
Grace Lynch:
I want to introduce you to someone who did come back to Louisiana. Colette Pichon Battle. She's a climate justice advocate, founder and executive director of the Gulf Coast Center for Law and Policy. She was living outside of her home state when Katrina hit. In the aftermath, she came back to help. She's been there ever since.
Colette Pichon Battle:
The climate change conversation and the way that science and statistics really frame it, is good but inadequate. And it did not describe what I was experiencing, the door that I walked through in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. When I looked at climate disaster recovery, what I saw was racial discrimination. When I looked at federal and state and local policies that forced people to choose between their livelihood and moving to another place that discriminate and brought lawsuits for years, I understood climate change, not through science, but through the discriminatory practices that will necessarily occur in our current systems, as we have more and more climate impacts. The frontline people want to know what's going to happen the next storm comes. Not, are you going to stop the water, but are we going to be able to rebuild? Are we going to be able to come back? Who's going to try to take our land? Who's going to be erased? Who's going to be allowed to die?
Farai Chideya:
That was an excerpt from the episode, The Bayou, from the podcast, As She Rises, by Wonder Media Network. We'll return with more, this time from stories in Oklahoma.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic and our month long series, showcasing innovative podcast, Our Body Politic Presents. We continue with more of Wonder Media Networks, As She Rises. This time host and producer, Grace Lynch, takes us to Oklahoma. As context, the 2020 Supreme court decision, McGirt v. Oklahoma, affirmed tribal sovereignty. Justice Gorsuch wrote in the majority opinion, "Land reserved for the Creek nation since the 19th century remains Indian country." But how that plays out in reality as the climate crisis accelerates is still very much in question. The McGirt case said that vast parts of Oklahoma remain Muskogee nation tribal lands. Now that decision is shaking up who controls mining in the region and also potentially who has jurisdiction over violent crimes.
Farai Chideya:
The energy and resource questions are critical to understanding the issues here. For example, last year, the US Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement made a decision. It would prevent the state of Oklahoma from exercising mining jurisdiction on Muskogee lands, giving that authority to the federal government.
Farai Chideya:
Now a portion of As She Rises episode, The Plains.
Joy Harjo:
Okay. My name is Joy Harjo, and this is a poem, Speaking Tree, which is in conflict resolution for holy beings, and it begins with a quote by the poet and novelist, Sandra Cisneros.
Joy Harjo:
I had a beautiful dream I was dancing with a tree. Some things on this earth are unspeakable. Genealogy of the broken, a shy wind threading leaves after a massacre, or the smell of coffee and no one there. Some humans say trees are not sentient beings, but they do not understand poetry, nor can they hear the singing of trees when they are fed by wind or water music, or hear their cries of anguish when they are broken and bereft. Now I am a woman longing to be a tree, planted in a moist, dark earth between sunrise and sunset. I cannot walk through all realms. I carry a yearning I cannot bear alone in the dark. What shall I do with all this heartache? The deepest-rooted dream of a tree is to walk, even just a little ways, from the place next to the doorway to the edge of the river of life and drink. I have heard trees talking long after the sun has gone down. Imagine what it would be like to dance close together in this land of water and knowledge, to drink deep what is undrinkable.
Grace Lynch:
In the US, Oklahoma doesn't usually come first in our collective scenic imagination. We think of starker landscapes, the coasts and opposition, but in the middle of this continent is a land full of wonders and layers. Ancient mountain ranges, broad expansive plains, savannahs, woodlands, and mesas. The name Oklahoma is derived from the Choctaw, Okla, for people, and humma, for red.
Grace Lynch:
Over the past year or so, since the major McGirt, Supreme court decision, media outlets have been saying half of Oklahoma is now recognized native land, but it's not really, at least not yet. That possibility is being threatened by the deeply embedded oil and gas industry and powers that won't readily respect tribal sovereignty because they never have.
Grace Lynch:
From Wonder Media Network, I'm Grace Lynch, and this is As She Rises. Joy Harjo, who you heard at the top of the show, is the country's first indigenous poet Laureate. She's now serving her third term. As we've noted throughout this series, indigenous voices should be central to climate conversations. It's an uphill battle across the US, and Oklahoma is no exception. One person who has been fighting to have her voice heard for a long time is Casey Camp-Horinek. She's an environmental ambassador, matriarch and drum keeper of the Ponca Nation of Oklahoma.
Casey Camp-Horinek:
Judy is my Ponca name. It's my true name. I live in the occupied territory of Oklahoma. My colonized name is Casey Camp-Horinek.
Grace Lynch:
The infringement on tribal sovereignty and the disproportionate impact of environmental hazards on indigenous tribes isn't new. Then in July 2020, it seemed like things might finally change in Oklahoma. In the landmark, McGirt versus Oklahoma case, the US Supreme court legally affirmed that most of the Eastern half of Oklahoma was recognized Indian territory, primarily as it pertained to the Muskogee Creek nation. This decision had far reaching legal implications, including the recognition of tribal sovereignty over environmental law making. That last point is crucial. By recognizing the land as reservation territory, the decision upended the state's prior authority over this area, which also just happens to be where 40% of Oklahoma's total monthly oil and gas is produced.
Casey Camp-Horinek:
It's an interesting concept, this idea of indigenous rights. And my brother, Carter Camp, was an astute scholar and leader of the American Indian movement when I was young. And when self-determination came around and everybody bought in and said, "Whoopee, here we are," exerting sovereignty, he just chuckled and he said, "Yes, but we're as sovereign as they allow us to be, sis."
Grace Lynch:
Extractive industries in Oklahoma are causing real time issues on the ground, literally shaking the foundations of the land. Manmade earthquakes, plague, Oklahoma. That's right. These earthquakes are not occurring naturally. Extracting oil and gas from the land produces a toxic byproduct called wastewater. To get rid of the wastewater, companies inject it underground in what are called disposal wells. These injections put stress on existing geologic fault lines or weakened shale. Oklahoma has experienced a 900 fold increase in earthquakes since 2008. In 2014, it was the most seismically active state in the lower 48.
Casey Camp-Horinek:
These earthquakes are shallow. These earthquakes are, as you said, manmade earthquakes. Could ever even imagine that we'd put those words together and that they would be saying something real, but the largest man made earthquake here was a 5.8. And literally you hang on when they happened. I happened to be in bed at that time and the bed is shaking and rocking and things are flying off of the walls and it is terrifying. We're experiencing violent earthquakes, which of course is another terrifying thing if you live in the nexus of pipelines that we do. All the pipelines in the United States, a majority of them end up here in Cushing, Oklahoma, and in Ponca city, North Central, Oklahoma. And those are just under the surface of the earth. So when these violent earthquakes happen, we're terrified constantly of leaks and explosions that will happen. And then of course, the fracking fluids and the tank batteries that contain all of the gases and things are leaking because of the earthquakes causing them to leak.
Grace Lynch:
And for those responsible, for the wreckage of the landscape and health of her community, Casey isn't mincing words.
Casey Camp-Horinek:
The leaders of these extractive industry, they're mass murderers, and they need to be known as such. We need to start calling them out by name, each individual executive that's making the decisions to continue to do what they do instead of transitioning into renewable energies. They are murderers. They are sacrificing human life so that they could live in more comfort while the rest of us die.
Grace Lynch:
In 2020, Governor Stitt wrote a memo to Congress, titled One Oklahoma. It reveals how Stitt intends to strip the 39 federally recognized tribes in Oklahoma of sovereignty to create further room for oil and gas development. It was co-signed by the multi billionaire, Harold Hamm, who owns one of the nation's biggest independent oil companies and is also known as the godfather of fracking. The memo revolved around this idea that one Oklahoma can only exist if all Oklahomans are treated the same, regardless of race, gender, or affiliation.
Grace Lynch:
After listing out a bunch of principles, including one that stipulates all environmental regulations should remain the responsibility of the state, the One Oklahoma memo contains the following.
Grace Lynch:
Sovereignty. The state of Oklahoma supports values and embraces the culture and uniqueness of each of the tribes that resides within Oklahoma and supports the sovereignty of these tribes in a way that is consistent with these principles. In other words, you need to play by our rules, or as Casey's brother put it, "As sovereign as they'll allow us to be." The fight for indigenous sovereignty has never been more important for all humanity. It is no coincidence that more than 80% of the world's remaining biodiversity and intact forests are in indigenous hands. They are the original stewards and caretakers of our land and are the leaders in showing us what it means to live in sustainable harmony with the planet.
Casey Camp-Horinek:
We knew how to exist without breaking the world around us, without committing suicide as humans are doing right now. And I think if one looks too hard underneath the veneer of what is called civilization, and sees the oppression of the indigenous people that continued killing fields that we live in because of the decisions made by their own federal government that are ongoing and not stopping, then they have to find a way. They talked about reparations for our black relatives, and we certainly understand that need, and certainly feel as if that's due. But what are the reparations for us? How do my people, the Ponca, be able to go back to our homelands where it's still healthy and clean and be able to breathe good air and plant our corn and have a place for our generations to continue? We deserve that and we need that, or else it is one more species, called the Ponca, that won't exist, and right behind us is you and your children.
Grace Lynch:
I teared up when Casey said that last bit to me. "Right behind us is you and your children." Now I don't have children, but that's not really the point. It was a profoundly sobering moment. Casey also told me that the prospect of protecting land isn't an individual choice. It's more like a chain reaction. Continued efforts to silence native voices, the open refusal to recognize a landmark victory and land reclamation in the name of One Oklahoma. These are patterns that make the knot of this history even tighter. It won't be easy to change the way these issues have echoed for 500 plus years, but every movement requires a community to turn the tide, a community that understands the ripples at stake.
Casey Camp-Horinek:
And I could enumerate all of those things that has reduced my people down to just over 200 in the past, the smallpox blankets, on and on and on. But we exist today because we are resilient, and those circular ways of understanding are not gone from us. We haven't forgotten. You and all of your ancestors lived that same way once. And within your DNA, you are wanting to hear this message. That's why we're here, you and I together today. But knowing better and taking action will make all the difference in our tomorrows. We're never too late. The earth is purifying herself. She knows what she's doing. So let's do our best to do what we have to do to align human law with natural law. It's not that hard. Let's do it.
Grace Lynch:
The situation on the ground in Oklahoma is evolving. Just last week, under the direction of mayor GT Bynum, the city of Tulsa filed an amicus brief with the Supreme court. Its explicit request is to overturn the McGirt decision. The filing was made unsurprisingly without any warning to Oklahoma's tribal communities. Oklahoma is a heightened microcosm of the broader struggle for tribal sovereignty. Across the country, the US government continues to deny treaties and restrict native communities. Extractive industries continue to abuse and poison indigenous lands, literally shaking the foundation of the earth.
Grace Lynch:
In addition to staying up to date on the latest developments with the McGirt's decision in Oklahoma, I encourage you to look at the state of tribal sovereignty closest to your own home. Because returning land to indigenous people is imperative everywhere for the survival of all of us. So as the world turns its attention to the power players at COP 26, it's important that we don't lose sight of the communities that have actually demonstrated the ability to successfully cohabitate with the natural world for over thousands of years.
Grace Lynch:
There are organizations you can support that are working to protect travel sovereignty and promote indigenous land practices. One that Casey is intimately involved with is Movement Rights, which you can find at movementrights.org. To further immerse yourself, I also encourage you to check out one of Joy's nine books of poetry, or her memoir that came out last month, titled Poet Warrior. You could find these along with her music and more at joyharjo.com.
Farai Chideya:
That was a portion of The Plains, an episode of the podcast, As She Rises from Wonder Media Network. Grace Lynch is the host creator and producer. Executive producer is Jenny Kaplan. The show is produced by Lindsey Kratochwill and Liz Smith, their managing producer is Emily Rudder. Editorial support from Ali Tejeda and Carmen Borka. As She Rises centers the voices of indigenous women and women of color facing the climate crisis and also highlights poetry as a bridge between the science and politics of climate and the lived experiences in our bodies, souls and hearts.
Farai Chideya:
Other episodes come from regions, including the Alaskan Tundra and the fire zones in Northern California, which used prescribed burns to work with the ecosystem as opposed to the raging fires of today. You can subscribe to As She Rises, to hear about these stories and more wherever you get your podcast. Next week, we'll feature content from a different podcast. Please join us.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Each week on the show, we bring you a round table called Sippin' the Political Tea. Joining me this week is Our Body Politic contributor, Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor of Law at Georgetown university.
Farai Chideya:
Hey Tiffany.
Tiffany Jeffers:
Hi, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
And contributor, Errin Haines, editor-at-large at the 19th. Hi Errin.
Errin Haines:
Farai, new year, new me, same virus.
Farai Chideya:
Hey. It is bringing all of my people down, just like it brought me down last month. Now, Errin, we are going all in on Georgia and it's only fitting that as an Atlanta native that you take the lead.
Errin Haines:
Well, okay, scoot over. I'll hop in the driver's seat. Get in losers, we're going to talk about elections.
Farai Chideya:
Sounds good.
Errin Haines:
Okay. So this week, president Biden and vice president Harris traveled down to my hometown of Atlanta to deliver this major speech on voting rights. And after months of president Biden doing this will he or won't he dance, he called on the Senate to change the filibuster rules in this speech. Let's listen to some of that.
President Biden:
Will we choose democracy over autocracy, light over shadows, justice over injustice? I know where I stand. The question is, where will the institution of the United States Senate stand?
Errin Haines:
Okay, so now we do know where president Biden stands, but some voting rights advocates said that frankly, time for action on this has long passed. Farai, how do you think the president Biden speech was received?
Farai Chideya:
It's an action speak louder than words moment. And there have been a lot of good analyses including one coming out of the Brennan Center, showing that voting rights has really broken across partisan lines historically. So this whole idea of seeking bipartisanship as a top level outcome of voting rights does not have historical precedent, and it doesn't look like it's going to have a precedent now. And now the president and the vice president are championing strategies that voting rights advocates have been saying they should have been championing a year ago, right after the insurrection. Right after the insurrection might have been a great time to say that we simply cannot become a country without secure voting law. And a lot of advocates just basically boycotted the speech and said, "Good luck with that. You really just have not been delivering the payload."
Errin Haines:
Yes. Yes, it's really interesting. I was actually at the last major voting rights speech that president Biden gave in Philadelphia. And there were certainly so many important black organizers, dignitaries, folks who were at the state and federal level who were... Prominent Democrats sat there, listened to him give a very fiery speech on voting rights and then last summer nothing happened. And so we know that these state legislatures continue to be on the march, passing legislation that is going to make it harder for those very folks that turned out in record numbers in 2020.
Farai Chideya:
Yes. I just wanted to point out that among the groups that stayed away was the Asian American Advocacy Fund, which joined a lot of black led groups like the Black Voters Matter Fund. And it's just another example of the new Georgia coalition coming together in this case to essentially rebuke the president.
Errin Haines:
Yes. And look, those folks did exactly what they were asked to do in 2020. They got record turnout among that coalition in the middle of a pandemic up against voter suppression. They did whatever it took to get people out to the polls to deliver democratic victory in Georgia for the first time in a generation. And so they are now saying it's time for Democrats at the federal level to really put it all on the line to protect them, and they really are not accepting anything less than their full effort on that. Give us a rundown of what's really in play in Georgia right now.
Farai Chideya:
Well, the nexus is real. So first, Georgia is one of 19 states to pass restrictive voting laws since the 2020 election. Second, the governor, Brian Kemp, signed a new redistricting map into law in December. And third, voting rights groups are now suing, alleging that that map denies representation to black communities. And the question of gerrymandering is also linked to a Supreme court decision, which professor Jeffers would know a lot more about. That looked at the intent of the gerrymandering. And so it's basically, if it's racially gerrymandered, my understanding is that it's not necessarily struck unless it's proven that that was the intent, but I'd love to know more.
Errin Haines:
So Farai, you brought up professor Jeffers. We're going to ask a lawyer now. Tiffany, talk about the impact that this federal voting rights legislation could potentially have on places like Georgia and the voters that stand to be disenfranchised.
Tiffany Jeffers:
So there's so much good content that you all have already discussed. And I wanted to circle back to one thing before jumping into the federal legislation that we're waiting for right now. And that was talking specifically, Farai, when you mentioned black bodies being denied the right to vote. I was reading through one of the cases that's been filed in Georgia, and they point out the statistic. In their petition about how people of color, bipoc people, that population is going to soon outnumber the white majority. And I think there's a crisis with white politicians right now when they recognize extending voting rights means extending actual power, whereas historically it was just extending the right to maintain the status quo and keep white bodies in power. I think we're seeing a shift in who actually has the autonomy and ability to create laws and to govern. And that is what's causing this crisis of dissent from specifically Republicans and mansion and cinema.
Tiffany Jeffers:
If you look at their districts, their fear is that they're going to lose essentially white power, not in the scope of white supremacy, but in the scope of white people controlling what black and brown bodies are able to do in this country. And I think that's a really important point because then if we segue from that idea into federal law, that was the entire point of the voting rights act. When the voting rights act was gutted most recently taking the teeth out of that legislation, meaning the federal government now has to prove a state's racist intent, that's almost impossible to do when you think about how do you prove that a state specifically intended to be racist. It's just legally hard to do. States losing their autonomy to be racist is scary for Republicans, particularly.
Errin Haines:
Yes, well, listen, I don't have a seat in your class, Tiffany, but I absolutely learn something from you every single time we are on here. This is such important context.
Errin Haines:
And you are listening to the Sippin the Political Tea, on Our Body Politic. I'm Erin Haines of the 19th, with our contributor Georgetown law professor, Tiffany Jeffers and host Farai Chideya. If you're just tuning in, you can catch the whole conversation on our podcast. Just find Our Body Politic wherever you listen to podcasts.
Errin Haines:
And Tiffany, you were making such a great point about intent versus impact. And that's really something that I've thought a lot about, especially as it pertains to my home state, because earlier this month you had the three men that were convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery, being sentenced to life in prison, which made me think a lot just really about the question of bodily autonomy, not just the freedom to make reproductive choices, or even the freedom to be able to cast your ballot safely and fairly on election day, but also just the freedom to walk around and be safe. Or in Breonna Taylor's case, for example, the freedom to sleep without being murdered. You had Ahmaud Arbery's father saying that when his son went running, that was when he felt the most alive and the most free, and they took all of that away from him.
Errin Haines:
And Tiffany, you're a professor of law, but you're also a black woman. So, I want to come to you first on this and just ask, how do you think about the law and its role in really protecting bodily autonomy for people of color?
Tiffany Jeffers:
Ooh, Errin, this is such an important topic. I'm really glad we're discussing it today. And I have my own internal dissonance in thinking about the sentence against the convicted killers... Ahmaud's convicted killers. We should be specific that it was life without the possibility of parole for the father and the son. And that's really meaningful. That just has not happened historically in talking about individuals convicted of killing black bodies. So I think it's important, I think it's historical, I think that sentence matters. But I've also had this 180 personal enlightenment, I'll say, after my time as a prosecutor and just understanding how the criminal legal system is so set up to be racially unfair and biased against black people, particularly.
Tiffany Jeffers:
And thinking about the decarceral movement versus the abolition movement. So the abolition movement is get rid of jails essentially. No one should be going to jail. We've got to figure out a better way than the punitive prong of the criminal legal system. The decarceral movement is let's reduce the amount of people that we send to jail. I don't personally believe that I'm an abolitionist, but I do support the decarceral movement. But when you about things like life without parole, do we want the government to say that this person can't be rehabilitated? And this leaves the scope of black bodies, but this just thinks more macro level of what we want our criminal legal system to do.
Errin Haines:
So I want to stay with you Tiffany for a second, because we're also seeing plans already in Florida for a ban on all abortion after 15 weeks, no exceptions for rape, no exceptions for incest. Our control of women's bodies has been a strategy of authoritarian governments across the world and throughout history. How does that jab with America? And do you see this as an American authoritarianism? And if so, how do Americans fight back against this?
Tiffany Jeffers:
What's happening is that the three branches of American government are in crisis. The court has lost its standing in the community as a nonpartisan entity that interprets our constitution. I don't think the public has any faith in the Supreme court. And they were essentially the last hope to protect abortion rights and reproductive justice in this country, because we can see that the US Congress is nonfunctioning at this point, regardless of which party is in charge or in control. They're unable to get things done. And so historically we looked to the court to bring some semblance of function to a partisan, a two party system, and now we don't even have that anymore. And so for women in this country seeking to have abortions or any reproductive rights, Texas opened the door with this playbook and Mississippi as well has shared their playbook, and now states across the country are going to be limiting the rights of women. It's difficult to figure out where oppressed people start, where people fighting for rights begin, to dismantle a system that is snatching away things that were baseline for us for so long.
Errin Haines:
Yes, yes.
Farai Chideya:
And one thing that I'm just paying attention to is... As we talk about bodily autonomy, is the ways that historically, and even in the present, some people have been pushed towards forced sterilization. Fannie Lou Hamer was sterilized against her will. There was a whole campaign in multiple states to sterilize indigenous women. At one point 25%. In the modern era in the seventies, 25% of indigenous women were forcibly sterilized. And so, people call this genocide and I think it's interesting that the word genocide gets used sometimes in the debate over abortion, but it is not something where people... Just recently, there have been forced sterilizations inside immigration detention centers. So this is not the past, it's the present, and bodily autonomy is such a deep and rich and painful topic.
Tiffany Jeffers:
And I think people are... Human rights advocates are looking to the global community to find some justice because as you mentioned, Farai, it feels like the United States is moving towards a more authoritarian form of government. And avenues are being closed to where the snatching away of our rights can be redressed successfully and fairly. Errin, you just mentioned genocide. The conversation of genocide through the sterilization of women of color, and maybe using the global mechanism as a way to get rights for these individuals or redress for these individuals. And so it's just... It'll be interesting to see how these things all play out.
Errin Haines:
So as a resident Georgian, I just have one final thing for you both because many of our listeners may be tuning into our show on January 17th, which is the official Martin Luther King Jr Day holiday. Dr. King famously said, "We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." So as the parting tea here, Farai and Tiffany, what gives both of you hope? I will say what gives me hope comes from also Dr. King really asking, chaos or community, where do we go from here? And despair is not a foregone conclusion, that we do still have an opportunity. As bleak as things may sometimes seem, there is an opportunity to make a different choice, to choose a different path, to forge a new way forward together as Americans in this country. And so that is encouraging me on this holiday, even with everything that we are seeing in terms of attempted erosions to our democracy in our society. So Farai, I will come to you first and then Tiffany, you get the last word.
Farai Chideya:
There was a really interesting thing that my coach said. I have a executive coach and she was like, "Yes, women of color are just burnt out on having to explain everything to everyone." So when my other clients say, how do I understand women of color, I'm like, "Why don't you listen to this radio show?" Because they are doing in group conversations at a high level, and they will never have those conversations with you in the same way. And you don't have to blow up their phone and ask for their time and be extractive. And I feel like there's a way that we can learn from each other, but we also have to realize people are tapped out right now. So I feel what gives me hope are ways of deep listening to other people in community.
Tiffany Jeffers:
Yes, that's beautiful. And in that same spirit and the spirit of Dr. King, love gives me hope. I do believe that love wins in the end. And I think it's true love like an unending love, not this fake... The things that we see in the media portrayed as love. I think love wins in the end. And Dr. King was passionate about his belief that love conquered all. And, in honor of the recently departed Bell Hooks and her work and writing about love, I just... I'm really grateful for that perspective, that I put all of my hope, all of my faith and all of my trust in love. I think you just can't go wrong with that.
Errin Haines:
Yes. Dr. King absolutely said that hate is too great a burden to bear. Well, listen, I definitely have so much love for both of you and for this conversation. Farai, I really believe that not only the work of this round table, but just the ongoing work here at Our Body Politic really is helping to create the beloved community that Dr. King imagined and envisioned for us as a democracy. So thank you for that, and thank you for this beloved community that is growing and creating stronger every single day.
Farai Chideya:
Well, thank you... Thank you, both. This is going to be a love Fest. We're going to start the love Fest right now.
Errin Haines:
Exactly... Exactly. And thank you to our beloved community of our audience, because you all are definitely so much a part of what it takes to create the world that we wish to see and where we're trying to go. So we're going to have to leave it there for now. The tea goes so fast around here, but it was really great talking to you, Tiffany, and kicking off my 2022 with you.
Tiffany Jeffers:
So good to be here with you, Errin. Happy new year.
Errin Haines:
And it was great to do our first round table together of the new year, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
Errin, it was such a pleasure and I look forward to many, many, many more.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm the executive producer and host, Farai Chideya. Bridget McAllister is our booker and producer. Emily J. Daly and Marisa Arbona-Ruiz are our producers. Our associate producer is Natyna Bean.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced by Lauren Schild, and associate produced by Beth Ebisch. Archie Moore, Roc Lee and Harry Evans are sound engineers.
Farai Chideya:
We’d also like to once again thank the podcast As She Rises, with host, creator and producer Grace Lynch; executive producer Jenny Kaplan; producers Lindsey Kratochwill and Liz Smith; and managing producer Emily Rudder. Editorial support from Ali Tejeda and Carmen Borca-Carrillo.