In tough times, people need joy wherever they can find it. Some find it in podcasts. As a part of our “Our Body Politic Presents…” series, Farai talks with Tonya Mosley, creator of “Truth Be Told” who’s finding joy in today’s world. We’ll also hear a portion of an episode of Truth Be Told’s latest season entitled “Unwavering Love” where both Tonya and editor James T. Green interview legendary poet Nikki Gionanni. Plus, Farai sips the political tea on domestic issues with Politico’s Anita Kumar and Renée Graham of the Boston Globe.
And a big thank you to Tonya Mosley, host and creator of the podcast Truth Be Told and her team: Ayanna Angel, Aisha Brown, James T. Green and Enrico Benjamin. Truth be Told is a production of TMI Productions in association with Fearless Media.
Farai Chideya:
Hi, folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us, and we read them for your feedback. We are here for you, with you, and because of you. Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Building and growing Our Body Politic and our beloved community of listeners also means adapting and changing. In January, we experimented with bringing you great podcast, only content from other creators, each with their own and distinct focus and voice. And now this week, we are relaunching Our Body Politic Presents as a regular part of our show. We are bringing you must-hear content from women of color audio creators.
Farai Chideya:
After years of working for big media companies, I founded Our Body Politic to do journalism about women of color that I just didn't see being done on a regular basis. And now, more than a year into our broadcast, we realize we are not only creators of new content, but that we can curate and amplify other storytellers. First up, we've got Tonya Mosley, journalist and host of the podcast, Truth Be Told. Here's how she got revelations about how she connected with audiences after being live on air on public radio during the January 6th insurrection.
Tonya Mosley:
I was drowning, and no one could see me. Then, as quickly as I could, I began the ritual, hitting delete on every message until I came to one that said, "I see you, sis." "I see you, sis." That is the kind of message that can only come from another soul who understands what it means to almost drown.
Farai Chideya:
I spoke with Tonya about what Truth Be Told's mission is and honed in on their episode, Unwavering Love, which you're going to hear parts of later in the show.
Farai Chideya:
I am so excited about this. So I wanted to have you on Our Body Politic because, A, I admire you, B, I draw strength from your work. Now, Tonya, this all evolved out of us becoming more independently produced and just needing great content. And, frankly, we need more joy.
Tonya Mosley:
I first have to say, folks don't even know. I mean, to hear you say that you are inspired by me and my work, I am deeply inspired by you, Farai. You are one of the reasons why I felt like I could keep going in audio, and so I just want to say that, right off the bat, that this is way cool.
Farai Chideya:
Oh, thank you. It is.
Tonya Mosley:
Yeah, it is. But, as you know, I am a news-person. I'd been a NPR host for several years, taking on during the time of the most probably intense news cycle, the pandemic, the Trump administration, and now we're in the midst of watching a war in Ukraine.
Tonya Mosley:
And so I really wanted a space where we could explore what it means to be human, to get back to that connectedness, and I specifically wanted to take a look at what it means for Black Americans in this next leg of liberation. What does it look like? What does it sound like, and feel like, and taste like? And this came out of the George Floyd time when we were all very much centered on what folks were calling a racial reckoning, but really it was the nation taking a look at something that we had all known and been living with. And so I wanted to take a beat and a moment to really explore what joy and healing and liberation looks like for us.
Farai Chideya:
Later in today's Our Body Politic, we are going to hear quite a bit of your interview with poet, Nikki Giovanni, from the episode Unwavering Love, which kicks off your third season. And here's a little taste.
Nikki Giovanni:
There's that wonderful spiritual, and see we backed to that. Says, "I've been buked and I've been scorned. I've been talked about. Sure as I'm born, but I ain't going to lay my religion down. No, no, children. I ain't going to lay my religion down." And it's fabulous, because it frees you from worried about what somebody thinks about you. Because who gives a damn? You don't know these people.
Farai Chideya:
Tonya, why did you want Nikki Giovanni to kick off this season?
Tonya Mosley:
Well, first of all, she's amazing, so that is one reason. But also, they say that we are most ourselves at the beginning of our lives and at the end of our lives. And, of course, Nikki Giovanni, we hope, lives for a long time to come, but she will even acknowledge it's 78 years old, she is winding down in this life. But she is 100% unabashedly herself. She understands her point of view, she understands where she sits in this world, she understands what she likes and she doesn't, and she's not afraid to say no, and she's also not afraid to speak her truth and also evolve.
Tonya Mosley:
So she's an interesting person because she will say, "What I thought 50 years ago might be completely different than what I think right now, and that is how life works." And so for this third season, I wanted her to be the person to kick off as our wise one. That's what we call our guests on the show, wise ones, to offer advice to one of our editors, James T. Green, who identifies as non-binary. And they are at a place where they're trying to figure out where they sit spiritually and how they can be part of a community, a church community, while still holding that identity as a non-binary person. And Nikki Giovanni just gives it to you straight. So she was a wonderful person to be able to unpack this dilemma with James.
Farai Chideya:
I love how you woven your staff, and we are not going to play any of her conversation with James right now because we are going to save that for the next section of the show. So stay tuned. It is an incredible conversation, and Nikki takes it cosmic in a really beautiful way. I actually got the chance to speak to Nikki Giovanni back in 2007 for NPR's News & Notes, and she and I had a conversation about her tattoo, specifically Thug Life. We talked about who it honored...
Nikki Giovanni:
On my left arm, I have Thug Life. And, of course, Tupac had it on his abdomen, but I'm not in good shape. So I put it on my arm because my arm's a little better.
Farai Chideya:
... and I said, "Look, some people view his motto as an insult to peace." And you know she had an answer to that.
Nikki Giovanni:
No, I'm not enchanted with people that try to put their own interpretations on what was clearly... Tupac was very clear about that. And he's always going to stand with the thugs. The term he used was, to use a better, "With my N-word," right? That he always stood with his people.
Farai Chideya:
And when I think about standing with one's people, I think of you Tonya, as someone who stands with your people. And if that sits with you, right? How do you stand with people in your work in life?
Tonya Mosley:
Oh, I'm so honored that you say that, because, again, with everything, it's an evolving thing, thinking about what might be purpose is. But I think a lot about the bench that Tony Morrison often talks about. When it comes to honoring those who are enslaved, there's not even a bench. But based on that, she talked about building that bench of support for each other as Black people.
Tonya Mosley:
Nikki Giovanni talks about this a lot as well. And I think about how I can be that bench for other Black people where Truth Be Told is a place, an open space, where we can have real conversations with each other. This season and the next four seasons is an experiment. My entire team is made up of Black-identified people, and that's because I learned, from producing season one and season two, which was more broadly focused on people of color, that you do a disservice to everyone when you try to be wide and thin versus deep and narrow on your topics. It was really important for me to take on the specificity of Black identity for these next few seasons where we take on what Black liberation looks like for love and wealth and education and nourishment.
Farai Chideya:
And your episode, this same episode, also includes Giovanni reading her poetry. She says, quote, "They never understand that Black love is Black wealth." And that phrase of hers, that writing of hers, really hit me in my soul. And getting back to what you were just talking about, so much of Truth Be Told feels like an ode to just that, shining a light on the wealth in our communities, not just the issues or lack and leaders like Trabian Shorters who runs BMe really talk about asset framing in discussing blackness, the need to discuss our assets.
Tonya Mosley:
To that point about Nikki Giovanni, her poem, which she wrote back in 1971 with that line, Black love is Black wealth, that hits us all so hard, because I think so much of the discourse around Black life in America is what we don't have, what we're lacking, what we need to do. And sort of the Wizard of Oz, it's like we have had the answers all along, so taking a beat and slowing down and realizing, "Hey, we do already have the tools. We do. We can learn from our ancestors and our grandparents and parents the ways." It's about deepening and building and taking those positive things to help us move forward.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. As you are putting all this work together, what are some of the things that you do to refill your wealth? What goofy, fun things, make you happy?
Tonya Mosley:
Oh, my gosh. Well, rest can't be overstated. I am someone where my worth is so tied to my output. And I think so many of us live that way and feel that way, that the more we do, the more value we feel like we hold in this world. And it's just not true. In the end, you're going to empty your well and not have anything to give and be broken. And I see that in family and loved ones who their bodies are broken because they've spent so much time trying to show their worth just through work.
Tonya Mosley:
So part of that is taking a step back and doing the things that make me feel good, and that is Truth Be Told. This is work that is soul-nourishing work. But some other goofy things that I do, let's see, I love trash TV, Farai. I mean, I love trash TV. Reality shows, Love is Blind, totally been on that train. And I'm a plant mom. I have a million plants and I'm tending to them in the evenings when I'm done with work. And on the weekends, I do flower arranging. I sometimes-
Farai Chideya:
What?
Tonya Mosley:
Yeah, I go to the LA Flower Market, I'm in Los Angeles, every Saturday morning.
Farai Chideya:
I love this so much. I am also a plant mama. I have a shishito pepper plant named Pepper, because what else would she be named?
Tonya Mosley:
I love it.
Farai Chideya:
She has literally been in my car up and down the East Coast. She is still bearing peppers. Every time I see her flower-
Tonya Mosley:
I think I'll post pictures of pepper.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, I will post a picture of pepper. Some people have therapy animals, I have my therapy plant.
Tonya Mosley:
Yeah. I'm going to post a picture for you to see. My favorite. Ooh, I shouldn't say favorites. My other plants might get jealous.
Farai Chideya:
You know what? I feel more joyful already, Tonya, just having talked to you. It's really meant a lot. Tonya, thanks so much. And I'm excited about having Truth Be Told on not once or twice, but consistently over the coming months.
Tonya Mosley:
Yay. So excited and honored, too. Thank you, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
That's Tonya Mosley, journalist and host of Truth Be Told. She's also a correspondent for NPR's Here & Now.
Farai Chideya:
Coming up next, selections from Truth Be Told's episode, Unwavering Love.
Nikki Giovanni:
You just have to be aware that you are part of the future. That you're not a part of the past, where we had these stupid definitions.
Farai Chideya:
Plus the charged bills coming out of state houses on gender identity and race. That's on Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. We just heard from Tonya Mosley, host and creator of Truth Be Told.
Tonya Mosley:
I really wanted a space where we could explore what it means to be human, to get back to that connectedness, and I specifically wanted to take a look at what it means for Black Americans in this next leg of liberation. What does it look like? What does it sound like, and feel like, and like?
Farai Chideya:
We're now bringing you, as a part of our Our Body Politic Present series, part of their first episode from their current season called Unwavering Love. Mosley, and later one of her producers, interview the poetic force, Nikki Giovanni. (singing).
Tonya Mosley:
A radical poet backed by a gospel choir. People had never heard anything like this, the first recorded fusion of gospel with the spoken word. Two languages articulating the same struggle.
Nikki Giovanni:
Well, I've always thought, of course, that the spirituals had a message. They weren't just that some people woke up one morning or came in from working in the evening and said, "Oh, let's sit down and sing." They were sharing information to each other.
Speaker 5:
Childhood remembrances are always a drag if you're Black. You always remember things like living in Woodland with no inside toilet. And if you become famous or something, they never talk about how happy you were to have your mother all to yourself and how good the water felt when you got your bath from one of those big tubs that folk in Chicago barbecue in.
Speaker 5:
And, somehow, when you talk about home, it never gets across how much you understood their feelings as the whole family attended meetings about Holly Dale. And even though you remember, your biographers never understand your father's pain as he sells his stock and another dream goes. And though you're poor, it isn't poverty that concerns you. And though they fought a lot, it isn't your father's drinking that makes any difference, but only that everybody is together and you and your sister have happy birthdays and very good Christmases. And I really hope no white person ever has calls to write about me, because they never understand Black love is Black wealth. And they'll probably talk about-
Tonya Mosley:
That always gets me, "Because they never understand that Black love is Black wealth." Well, what does Black wealth look like for James? Before we get to their dilemma, Nikki and I talked about what Black wealth looks like for her today, and we pick up the conversation with one of Nikki's favorite subjects.
Tonya Mosley:
I want to ask you about your grandma's greens too, because I know that you said that you've spent a lifetime trying to get that recipe down. I'm the same way. I cook greens every Sunday, and every Sunday I fall short. They're good enough, but they'll never have that taste.
Nikki Giovanni:
There's something those old ladies did. I don't know, they smile or... It was something they did that you and I... or they said, "Please," or something that you and I aren't doing.
Nikki Giovanni:
But what I remember, and I'm sure you do also, is you had to cook your ham hock the day before. And then it went into the refrigerator and it cooled. And I think that was one of the things, because you and I, we're busy. And so we end up putting the ham hock in with the greens and cutting everything and cooking it all at the same time. And I think that that might be one of the things that we're missing, is that patience that they had to wait.
Tonya Mosley:
Man, that patience. It's so true. Even with New Year's Eve and with black-eyed peas, when you realize, "Oh, I've got to soak them for 24 hours before we actually get to the cooking."
Nikki Giovanni:
Oh, yeah, yeah, black-eye. Black-eyed peas and, of course, chitlins. And I really like chitlins, and I'm always surprised, again, that I talk to young people and they say, "Ooh, I wouldn't eat chitlin."
Nikki Giovanni:
I said, "If your great grandmother and father didn't eat chitlins, you wouldn't be here." That's what helped us to survive. Now I'm getting hungry for chitlins and quite delicious. And to do that with your cornbread, what more do you want?
Tonya Mosley:
Right. I know you got to have the cornbread, and you've got to have a good cornbread recipe, that's for sure. I had the pleasure of listening to both of your gospel albums from 1971 and '72, Truth Is on The Way, and Like A Ripple On A Pond. We got our son a record player for Christmas, and so it's just been so fun to do that.
Tonya Mosley:
And I know that those both were recorded by the New York Community Choir, and they were just re-issued, back in November, to mark the 50th anniversary. It is a riveting listen. It feels like going back to church, really. Like you are sitting in a church. And it also feels subversive, because we're hearing your poetry about things like misogyny and white supremacy up against these traditional gospel classics. Did it feel that way at the time? What was the purpose? Why did you want to bring your poetry to this sensibility of the church and choir?
Nikki Giovanni:
Well, I've always thought, of course, that the spirituals had a message. They weren't just some people woke up one morning or came in from working and in the evening and said, "Oh, let's sit down and sing." They were sharing information to each other. And you have to remember, when they were enslaved, they were not allowed to read or write. So there were not going to be any books being passed. The slaves did not have any books to pass.
Nikki Giovanni:
So the only way that they could tell each other what was going on is going to be through song. So, for me, growing up in the church, and I just love the spirituals, I've always loved them, that's the music that's going to build the music that everybody hears now. No matter where you are on planet earth, you will hear Black-American music.
Nikki Giovanni:
So you can be in China and you've got kids in China who are rapping, which is unbelievable, but that's the truth. And poetry is a part of that talking. You're into electronic communication, which allows you to talk to thousands of people as far as you want to. There was a time that you and your stories would not travel very far. You'd go from one, maybe, plantation to the next.
Tonya Mosley:
Nikki, these spans of time and the things that have happened over time are so important to talk about and reflect on, because with every new generation, they need to know why what's happening is happening, the significance of it. The last year, we've been having this ongoing conversation about the parallels between 1971 and now, marking that 50 years. Do you see the parallels to then and now?
Nikki Giovanni:
I think, and I don't mean to be positive, I don't mean to be joyful or anything like that, but I think that there's been a lot of progress. And I think that we and the Black community have raised our voices. And I think that that's what's really, really important. And in doing so, and we have to give Martin Luther king Jr. credit for that, Martin and John Lewis, who deserves a lot of credit and people do give John a lot of credit. We've lost a lot of people. We really have. But we've also changed the country.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Our Body Politic. I'm hosting creator, Farai Chideya. We're bringing you, as a part of our Our Body Politic Present series, selections from the podcast, Truth Be Told, with Tonya Mosley. We're currently listening to part of their recent episode, Unwavering Love, with poet, Nikki Giovanni. Let's get back to it.
Nikki Giovanni:
Somebody said, "Oh, we have to fight this virus." You can't fight a virus. You have to find a way to live with it. So I wake up, I have cancer, and my left lung has been removed because of cancer. And then now, my right breast has been removed. And I always laugh at it and it's something I talk about, because it's true. I'm just so glad it was my left lung and my right breast because it keeps me balanced. If it had been all on one side, if it had been my left lung and my left breast, I wouldn't be able to stand up straight. But this is keeping me balanced.
Nikki Giovanni:
So if Jesus and I have a bit of a conversation, I'd say, "Well, I appreciate the fact that you balanced this out." But I'm not fighting cancer. And I hear people talk about that, "Oh, you have to fight this." I know better than to fight cancer, because cancer is going to win. So I'm saying to cancer, "Hi, good thing to see you. Good morning. I hope to see you tomorrow." Because, otherwise, if I'm fighting cancer, I'm going to lose. And I'm not going to fight. I just want to live with it.
Tonya Mosley:
And what I also hear from you is that when it comes to faith and your relationship with the Black church, it's about your personal relationship with God and not the institution of, quote unquote, the Black church.
Nikki Giovanni:
Well, it's my relationship, and I'm not against God, but it's my relationship with Jesus. Because I think he was a good guy. And I think if you read the New Testament and you read with some thought about who this guy was, Jesus, so whatever his relationship to God was, I'm glad, but my relationship is he did the best that he could do. So my job, if we are going to be friends, is for me to do the best that I can do.
Nikki Giovanni:
And I'm not preaching today because it takes too long to do this on a podcast. But see, I never believed that Jesus died for my sins or anybody else's. I think that Jesus died to show us, "Don't worry about it. See, I'm up here on the cross. Death ain't nothing. Don't worry about it. I'll be there. Don't worry about it." And they got everybody scared of death, and Jesus like, "No, no, no. I'm here showing you death ain't nothing, because you will," as he said to the man on his left, "You will be with me in heaven."
Nikki Giovanni:
I doubt that I will because I hate people and there are things that... I doubt that I'm going. I'm probably going to go to hell, but I do always say I hope I can get a day pass and go up and talk to my mom every now and then. I got some friends in heaven. But I think that Jesus on the cross was saying, "Death ain't nothing. Don't worry about it."
Tonya Mosley:
Are you not afraid of dying?
Nikki Giovanni:
I would prefer not to right now. But you say afraid, no, because it's got to happen. I have to die. I was born. If you were born, you're going to die. If I get a call and it's like, "Hi, Nikki, this is God. You're always talking. I need you up here in heaven. We got a situation. I need a poet, so I'm going to have to ask you to come on up." There's nothing for me to say, but, "Okay." Phone rings, I have to answer it. No. No, it's illogical to be afraid of the inevitable.
Tonya Mosley:
Wow. I mean, that's powerful. At the same time, we live our lives, number one, being afraid of death and trying to do everything we can to stay alive, trying to be healthy, trying to be safe, and then also living our lives in a way that we feel is Christ-like, because we don't want to go to that place called hell.
Tonya Mosley:
And so to hear you speak about this in the way that you feel, in a joking way, "Hey, I may be in hell. I just want to be able to say hi to my mom sometimes." And also like, "I'm living life to my fullest, and, yes, death is just as much a part of life as life." I mean, that sounds like freedom and liberation in its rawest form to me.
Nikki Giovanni:
I think that is so important, that you be in control of knowing what's important to you. So a lot of things that people care about, I couldn't care less. And a lot of things people have to say about, not you, but one. But then there's that wonderful spiritual. You see, we're back to that. Says, "I've been buked and I've been scorned. I've been talked about. Sure as I'm born, but I ain't going lay my religion down. No, no, children. I ain't going to lay my religion down." That is fabulous, because it frees you from worried about what somebody thinks about you, because who gives a damn. You don't know these people.
Tonya Mosley:
Well, let's get to our dilemma this week. And it comes from our own editor, James T. Green. James identifies as non-binary and uses he, they pronouns. And I want to bring him into the conversation.
James T. Green:
How do you feel about the gender binary, and how has binary thinking affected our growth as Black people?
Nikki Giovanni:
What does that mean?
James T. Green:
I feel like being identified as male or female doesn't necessarily fit for how I feel for myself. It feels like I'm stuck in the middle, there's no definition. And it feels like, especially because I do present as a man, I feel like society, the societal expectations of manhood and manliness doesn't necessarily fit with how I feel to be as a man.
Nikki Giovanni:
Okay. Well, I'm a space freak. So in dealing with space, I thought, "Well, if I run into a life form and they say, 'Who are you?' I need to tell them, 'I'm an earthling.'" I couldn't tell anybody, 'Well, I'm a Negro, or I'm Black." It has no meaning. I'm agreeing with you that it has no meaning that whatever my so-called gender is. I can't go into Jupiter and say, "I'm a woman, because they'll say, "Well, what's a woman?"
Nikki Giovanni:
And I don't know if you saw the movie which I love so much called Downtown Abbey. And you remember that Robert's nephew is now going to come, right? And so when he comes and they're all meeting, the duchess, and I love the duchess, she was so wonderful, and she was saying, "Well, how are you going to learn to run Downtown Abbey?" And he said, "I'll always have the weekend." And the duchess looked over and said to Robert, "What's a weekend." She didn't know. Queen Elizabeth doesn't know. "What's a weekend? Is that something that made any sense to people? She didn't know. And so we now know, or we're beginning to understand it won't make any sense to say, "I'm a man or a woman."
Tonya Mosley:
I mean, Nikki, when you put it like that, it does. In the context of the universe, right? Speaking to an alien what a human is, what a man, what a woman, what it means to be Black, it all does feel so ridiculous under that context.
Nikki Giovanni:
Sure. So you have to assume that you were somehow, and that's just arrogance on everybody's part, you were chosen, and I wouldn't say to bear the burden, but the light has been shined on you to make some of the difference. And the same way that the enslaved had the light shined on them to say, "We're going to be free." We know that some of the slaves ran away. And that's a good thing. Frederick Douglas ran away, Harriet Tubman ran away, that's a good thing, but we also know, and I have such a respect and a love for them, some of them stayed. And they were not cowards, they were not afraid. They said, "We're going to build where we are. Right here." And they stayed. Those who stayed.
Nikki Giovanni:
And so we end up getting The 13th Amendment. I think that's really great. Somehow, you have chosen, or you have been chosen, to make another step for human beings. It's a step for the future. It's not a step for the past. And so you have to say to yourself, "Oh, I've..." and you have, "I've been chosen. And I will find my community," because there is a community and we know that. I teach in the university. We know that there's a future coming where gender is insignificant. I think it's a fabulous thing. It's a lot going on. And it's more than I... I probably won't live long enough to know enough, but I know that it is the future.
Nikki Giovanni:
You just have to be aware that you are part of the future, that you're not a part of the past where we had these stupid definitions. And, right now, you're fighting within saying, "What's wrong with me?" I bet you, 90%, "What's wrong with me?" And there's nothing wrong with you, you just haven't understood what's right.
Farai Chideya:
That was sound from Tonya Mosley's podcast, Truth Be Told, which is part of our Our Body Politic Present series. We are going to share a link to the full episode of Unwavering Love on our socials. They are on Twitter, @DearTruthBeTold, and you can subscribe to Truth Be Told wherever you find your podcast.
Farai Chideya:
Highly recommend listening to this full episode. Nikki Giovanni is just completely her own human being. And I loved every minute of that episode. You can hear more from Truth Be Told right here on Our Body Politic as we continue our Our Body Politic Present series. So stay tuned for that. Coming up next, our weekly round table, Sippin' the Political Tea, with Renee Graham of The Boston Globe and Anita Kumar of Politico.
Anita Kumar:
Something that's really important to show is that there's been data that's showing abortions in Texas have dropped 60% since this law took effect in September, which is a huge, huge number. But then when you look a little bit further, you see some clinics and neighboring states have seen an increase in 800% in a demand for abortion. So let's really look at that.
Farai Chideya:
You are listening to Our Body Politic. Each week, on the show, we bring you a round table called Sippin' the Political Tea. Joining me this week is Opinion's columnist and associate editor at The Boston Globe, Renee Graham. Welcome, Renee.
Renee Graham:
Thank you. Good to be here.
Farai Chideya:
And also Politico senior editor of Standards & Ethics, Anita Kumar. Hi, Anita?
Anita Kumar:
Hi, great to be here.
Farai Chideya:
This week, we're taking a look at restrictive reproductive legislation in Idaho and Tennessee that's modeled after Texas' citizen-enforced six-week abortion ban, and we're also going to be discussing Florida's controversial Don't Say Gay bill, rising gas prices, a lot more. So let's jump right on in.
Farai Chideya:
On Monday, the Idaho House passed a bill allowing potential family members of the unborn to sue any doctor who performs an abortion after six weeks. That legislation now goes to Governor Brad Little's desk, who's expected to sign it. So, Renee, you tweeted about a similar Texas copycat bill in Tennessee, and that legislation allows a rapist family member or friends to sue the victim if she decides to get an abortion after six weeks. Let's listen to Tennessee representative, Bob Freeman questioning the bill's sponsor, Representative Rebecca Alexander.
Bob Freeman:
One in five, maybe one in six women in Tennessee, are victims of rape. And you could have a rapist and that rapist could impregnate a young lady, a minor, and the rapist mother or father could bring a suit against that minor if they decided to get an abortion, if this passes.
Rebecca Alexander:
My assumption is that they could, because it's any citizen.
Bob Freeman:
So yes?
Farai Chideya:
So, Renee, what's your reaction to that clip, and, to more broadly, this trend in citizen enforcement being centered in the abortion rights issue?
Renee Graham:
I think my first reaction was just horror. I had to read it three times to make sure I was understanding it the way it was written. It tells you everything you need to know about the mindset of the Republican Party today, in that they are giving more rights to rapists than they are giving to survivors. And this is always about criminalizing women's bodies. This is about controlling women's bodies. This is taking all agency away from women and girls who are victims of sexual assault to decide what is the best decision for them.
Farai Chideya:
I can't help but think about the 2012 comments of former Missouri Congressman Todd Akin, who said, "If it's legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down." And that became quite a kerfuffle, but this idea that somehow women can just avoid this rape thing.
Renee Graham:
If I can just quickly say, look how far we've come in that decade. That was a big deal. There was a lot of backlash when he said that, and it effectively ruined his political career. Now, he'd be hailed for that in the Republican Party. So that just shows how far things have fallen in the last decade.
Farai Chideya:
Anita, how do you cover something like this in a way that is journalistically sound? How do you propose that we, who are journalists, cover the evolution of laws around reproductive rights and bodily autonomy in a way that is reflective of what Americans actually think, believe, and are experiencing?
Anita Kumar:
Yeah. So many tough issues to cover. When I talk to other journalists, we just talk about the context, putting these policies and legislation and bills and laws, and really explaining what they do. Sometimes, they're bills that are proposed for political reasons. Explain what those are, explain how they impact people.
Anita Kumar:
In this particular case, with the Texas law, I think that something that's really important to show is that there has been data that's showing abortions in Texas have dropped 60% since this law took effect in September, which is a huge, huge number. But then when you look a little bit further, you see some clinics in neighboring states have seen an in increase in 800% in a demand for abortion.
Anita Kumar:
So let's really look at that. These are people that want to reduce the number of abortions, and they may say, "Look, we've been successful in that in Texas." But have they been successful? You look at these other states, and if that means that people are having to drive to other states to get some of that healthcare, we need to understand that.
Farai Chideya:
And I'm going to move on to Florida's controversial bill that is now popularly known as Don't Say Gay. That is not actually what it says on the legislation, but that is how it has become promoted and summarized by both proponents and opponents. And I'm going to stick with you for this, Anita.
Farai Chideya:
So Politico and Morning Consult did a poll about this bill, and it found that 51% of voters support, quote, "Banning the teaching of sexual orientation and gender identity from kindergarten through third grade. 35% were opposed, and the support was considerably higher among Republican voters."
Farai Chideya:
Another survey by PRRI found that 79% of Americans favor laws that protect LGBTQ people against discrimination in jobs, public accommodations, and housing. 41% strongly support those laws, and we should note that we don't actually have a federal anti-discrimination statute that is an umbrella statute on that level.
Farai Chideya:
So, Anita, a couple different numbers. One about Don't Say Gay, one about LGBTQ rights more broadly, seeming like they're coming from different directions. So what do those numbers indicate to you about voters and political messaging?
Anita Kumar:
Yeah, I think it's really tough to tell, with some of these polls, where people are. Some people would argue that you can have a poll to say what you want, and I think in some of these cases, it depends on how you ask the question, and it's also that certain issues have changed over time, right? We see that a lot of issues change over time and there are some issues, and I would some of these, the Don't Say Gay bill, as people are calling it, and some of these trans issues and trans legislation that we've seen, or are starting to see across the country, people are getting familiar with that. People are starting to understand what that means and getting a sense of that and learning more about it.
Anita Kumar:
And I do think that you're right, that it depends on what poll you look at, at what time. What we're seeing, though, is politicians looking at those polls and making what they want. We've seen a lot of Republican bills this year saying, "We're on the side of Americans and we're going to try to push through some legislation in state legislatures."
Farai Chideya:
And Renee, how do you square this divide between the majority of Americans saying that they support laws protecting LGBTQ people from discrimination, and the significant number of Americans who support restricting, even mentioning, sexual orientation in schools?
Renee Graham:
Of the issues is that there's always a framing of these bills. And they're always framed in the context of parental rights. And that gets people's attention, but it doesn't take into consideration the rights of LGBTQ parents and where they stand in this. And it's always interesting to me that the same people who claim to care so much about the rights of the unborn don't care at all about the impact that these bills are having on kids, whether we're talking about the trans bills, or we're talking about this parental rights bill in Florida, the Don't Say Gay bill. These are going after kids.
Renee Graham:
So I don't know that five-year-olds are sitting around talking about sexual identity, but kids do draw pictures of their family, right? Draw a picture of your family. And what if you have two dads, or what if you have two moms, or whatever the configuration of your family is? The idea that you're somehow demonizing that family versus another family is a huge problem. I think it's easy when you're framing the idea that, "Well, we don't want four-year-olds talking about sexuality," but we know this is much broader than that, and it's not really even about that. It's about erasure. It's about erasing the fact that different families exist, that LGBTQ people exist. That's what this is really about.
Farai Chideya:
Well, you are listening to Sippin' the Political Tea on Our Body Politic. I am Farai Chideya, and this week we're discussing abortion legislation, Florida's Don't Say Gay bill, and rising gas prices, with Renee Graham, Opinion's columnist and associate editor at The Boston Globe and Anita Kumar, Politico senior editor of Standards & Ethics. And if you're just tuning in, you can catch the whole conversation on our podcast. Just find Our Body Politic wherever you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
So I want to pivot to another big topic in American political life that is inflation and rising gas prices. Americans were already feeling the pressures of higher prices at the grocery store and in the housing market. I am someone who made a transition during the pandemic, from living in New York most of the time to living in Maryland a lot of the time, to be closer to my mother and extended family. And I'm doing a lot more driving between cities and the gas prices do affect me, but I also do want to say, we're seeing these gas prices. They are real. Right now, $4.30 a gallon. How do you see this playing out in the news cycle, particularly the political news cycle?
Anita Kumar:
I think it's a huge issue. Before the invasion of Ukraine and the gas prices were high, we saw Republicans really pushing President Biden saying, "Look, he's been in office for a year and the gas prices have gone up." So what we're seeing is states looking to see what they can do to lower the prices. And, of course, the way that they can lower the prices is to lower gas taxes or suspend those gas taxes. More politically, I would say, that you're going to see Republicans really pushing this this year in the midterms and saying that Democrats can't control the rising costs, not just to gas, but to other things, as you mentioned, food, housing, other things that we've seen rise steadily over the last year.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. Renee, how do you see this working on the political chess board? As Anita mentioned, there's moves to suspend state gas taxes in various different states. Considering it, Florida, also legislators in Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Mexico, Colorado, Minnesota, and Wisconsin have backed the congressional effort to suspend the $18.40 federal gas tax. But the science of whispering to voters and also to assigning blame to what happens, that's not comfortable in society, is a really tricky one. And right now, everyone is blaming everyone for these prices. Where do you see this going both right now and towards the midterms?
Renee Graham:
I mean, I think it's red meat for the Republicans. Americans don't necessarily understand that Biden does not set gas prices. But that doesn't matter, especially for the Republicans, because they're going to keep hammering that issue and making it seem like this is Joe Biden's fault, and, by extension, the fault of the Democrats. Therefore, "Elect us in November."
Renee Graham:
Looking at some recent polls, a majority of Americans are okay with an increasing gas prices as it's relating to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, because they believe it's important to punish Putin for what he is doing. Now, if this goes on for months and months and prices continue to spiral up, then that might change. But I just think it's something that the Republicans see as an issue that they can use and they can hammer Joe Biden on. And that's all they're really looking for. What truth there is behind it, in terms of what control he has, what he can do to alleviate the pain people are feeling, not just at the pump, but at groceries stores, trying to find apartments, and all these other things, is almost irrelevant.
Farai Chideya:
I wonder if either of you have any thoughts on how we should think about this moment of inflation, rising gas prices, and how it affects our national future. I mean, certainly, we have been covering Ukraine consistently on this show, and there seems to be an American appetite for wanting to aid the Ukraine, but also a real discomfort with some of the things that are emerging out of the geopolitical realignment, including the impact of Russia's oil and gas exports being restricted and that affecting prices. How do you try to make sense of approaching the prevailing winds within the American body politic, which can blow in different directions around an issue like this?
Anita Kumar:
It's really both of those things. You've seen people all over the country start raising money and turning on different lights and talking about Ukraine and trying to help refugees and all sorts of things, but, at the same time, complaining about some of these consequences. I would say, though, this issue with rising prices, both gas and housing and food, has been there. I mean, this is not caused by what has happened in the last three weeks or so. We've seen these fluctuations, we've seen these rises throughout the pandemic and particularly over the last year.
Anita Kumar:
And so it's not as simple as saying, "We support Ukraine. We shouldn't complain about prices." We tend to see Americans care about themselves and how they're getting along. Can they afford healthcare? Can they afford food? Can they afford gas? And so we are going to see people talk about that. And I think that's just the reality of humans, right? Is that we're always sort of looking at how we're able to get along. And I think that's why Republicans are going to look at this for the midterms.
Anita Kumar:
If you look at last year's elections, there was a lot of focus on the Virginia governor's race, where the Republican who ended up winning wasn't expected to win. He really talked about kitchen table issues. He talked about inflation and he talked about the economy. He did talk about schools. And so I know that Republicans are looking at that as a model to say, "Look, we've got to keep our focus on some of these things and maybe we'll be successful." Democrats have, obviously, a way to push back on that. They are trying to do that, but they also look back on that race and say, "Look, we weren't successful in that one. So how can we counter this attack as Americans continue to see these rising prices?"
Farai Chideya:
I'm going to end with one last line of questioning, which is about Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, whose four-day confirmation hearings are March 21st to 24th. Congressman Mondaire Jones from New York said that Jackson's nomination could help President Biden, quote, "In terms of his approval within the Black community." So I'm curious if you agree with Congressman Jones that this is something of deep significance to Black voters.
Renee Graham:
I do agree. I do think it will help Joe Biden with Black voters who have been rightfully disappointed. There's been a sense of promises made and promises that have been unkept, but there has not been police form, nothing has happened with voting rights. But Biden said, as a candidate, that he would nominate a Black woman, that he would get a Black woman on the Supreme Court. I expect the Republicans to grandstand to make a mess of this, but the bottom line is that I think she gets through. I think she gets through because the Democrats have the votes. And when that happens, I think that's definitely going to be a win for Biden, and that will help boost him, I think, in the Black community and communities that really care about what's happening with the Supreme Court.
Farai Chideya:
Anita, any thoughts?
Anita Kumar:
I think when you talk to Democrats, they really do think that this is going to help President Biden. This is something that the Democratic Party is energized around. This would be a historic pick. The president has made it really clear that he wants Republican support. He doesn't necessarily need that support, but he's been really clear that he wants Republican support. And I'll be interested to see if any Republicans decide to cross over and support her.
Farai Chideya:
Well, we're going to have to leave it there. Anita, thank you so much for joining us.
Anita Kumar:
Thanks for having me.
Farai Chideya:
And Renee, thank you for joining us as well.
Renee Graham:
Thanks so much.
Farai Chideya:
That was Renee Graham, Opinion's columnist and associate editor at The Boston Globe, and Anita Kumar, Politico's senior editor of Standards & Ethics. Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm the executive producer and host, Farai Chideya. Our Co-executive producer is Jonathan Blakely. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booker and producer. Emily J. Daly is our producer. Our associate producer is Natyna Bean.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Steve Lack and Lauren Schild. And engineered by Archie Moore and Adam Rooner.
Farai Chideya:
And a big thank you to Tonya Mosley, host and creator of the podcast Truth Be Told and her team: Ayanna Angel, Aisha Brown, James T. Green and Enrico Benjamin. Truth be Told is a production of TMI productions and distributed by DCP entertainment. And is made in collaboration with Molten Heart and in association with Fearless Media.
Farai Chideya:
This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.