Our Body Politic

Empowering People in Disaster; Creating a Stronger Democracy; and All Things SCOTUS

Episode Summary

This week, Farai speaks to Carmen Yulín Cruz Soto, former mayor of San Juan, Puerto Rico about what it took to guide her people through the aftermath of Hurricane Maria, as well as to create a compass for women leaders to understand their own power. In "Our Body Politic Presents..." A’shanti Gholar, host of the podcast “The Brown Girls Guide to Politics” interviews Dr. Sadaf F. Jaffer, the first Asian-American woman and first Muslim American woman sworn into the New Jersey General Assembly, about what it means for someone with her intersecting identities to have a voice in legislation. On our weekly segment, Sippin’ the Political Tea, Farai talks with Georgetown University law professor and OBP legal contributor Tiffany Jeffers and University of Baltimore law professor and Op-Ed columnist for the Atlantic and Politico Kim Wehle about all things Supreme Court.

Episode Transcription

Farai Chideya:

Hi folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting the show if you're able. You can find out more at ourbodypolitic.com/donate. We are here for you with you, and because of you. Thank you.

Farai Chideya:

This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. This week, we're spotlighting pioneering women of color who've stepped in and triumphed in the political arena. Once such woman is Carmen Yulin Cruz, the former mayor of San Juan Puerto Rico from 2013 to 2020. Now, among many of accomplishments, Cruz was tasked with shepherding the disaster relief response for San Juan following hurricane Maria. In that, she proved to be a fierce advocate for her constituents and a fearless critic of the US government's lack of aid. I sat down with Cruz to hear about that experience as mayor and what fueled her strength then and now, plus any political wisdom she might impart for other women office seekers.

Farai Chideya:

Mayor Cruz, thank you for joining us.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

Well, thank you very much for having me.

Farai Chideya:

We met at the Kennedy School at Harvard. And from what I can tell, you're setting a compass for women from around the world who are already leaders in many ways to understand their own power. Is that how you think of what you're you're working on?

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

Well, the position is called leader in practice, and it is a program at the JFK School called from Harvard Square to the Oval Office. That really prepares women and looks at the different things that you need to think about when you were thinking about running. So one of the things that I learned before the hurricane just catapulted me into this madness of being on the world stage was that you had to speak up, that speaking up was important and that there was no such thing as voiceless. People had a voice, they just don't have a platform.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

And very briefly, I'll tell you how I learned that my middle name is Yulin, Y-U-L-I-N, that is my grandmother's nickname. My grandmother was the first one in her family to learn to read and write. When it was time for her to go to the fields to work, my grandfather decided that she was the one that was going to go to school.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

I'm only 5' and I was very little. I was getting bust around in the play yard. One day she came to pick me up and she said, "Why do you have a bloody nose?" And I explained to her that I've been shoved around. She asked me, "Did you start the fight?" "No," I said. "Did you finish the fight?" and I started to cry. And in very grandma way she said, "You never start a fight, but you finished them all." So she says, "This is what you're going to do." We have these thermos filled lunch boxes. The thermos was very heavy. So she said, "You're very little. You have to hit him once. Hit him once. Run as fast as you can and scream as loud as you can." So I did. And so they called her into the teacher's office and she asked me, "Did you start the fight?" "No." "Did you finish the fight?" "Yes." "Did you defend yourself?" "Yes." She says, "I see no problem here. I'm taking her for ice cream."

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

So the value of solidarity, of helping me understand that I should not be messing people up, but if they messed with me, I had the right and the obligation to stand up for myself. For me, that was a lesson that I carry all my life. So part of the thing that I'm doing at Harvard and that I'm also doing here at Mount Holyoke college, I have a double fellowship, is to make people understand that it is your duty, it is your right, that when things don't go your way, that there's unfairness coming at you, you have the right and the duty to stand up and to help others standup for themselves.

Farai Chideya:

Well, I'm going to take the opportunity to call you Yulin in honor of both yourself and your grandmother. But let's get to mayor Cruz. You in 2012 won the San Juan mayoral election, defeating a 12 year incumbent who called you ese seniora. That woman.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

That woman.

Farai Chideya:

That woman. That woman. And so how did it feel to stand up for your leadership when to some people you were ese seniora?

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

Well, interestingly enough, I was the one on the ballot, but it wasn't me that was on the ballot. I represented and I was the echo of thousands of voices that were tired of having the rights trampled on, of having a person that had no use for the LGBT community.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

Let me move it one step backwards. I was elected to the House of Representatives in Puerto Rico at large on 2008. And I was fortunate enough to have student organizations, teacher organizations, LGBTQIA+ organizations, the unions, the immigrants allow me to walk with them. And I went from being from the far right of the political party that I belong to, the popular democratic party which is similar to the democratic party in the US, to being in the far left of the party in the very progressive and very liberal side of the party. And it was because I allowed all those voices to enter into my mind and my soul and my brain and have the stark reality of the people were living on the streets hit me, you know?

Farai Chideya:

Yeah.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

You know that Pat Benatar song Hit Me With Your Best Shot?

Farai Chideya:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

They did. So I spent four years in the streets of San Juan and the rest of Puerto Rico. So when it was time to run, my party did not want me. And they told me, "You're too liberal. You're too liberal." And I said, "But you know what? It is a coalition of voices that will defeat an incumbent that doesn't care about anyone's voice but himself." So my slogan was, I am the voice of a new San Juan, meaning I am the echo of all those voices. I did almost everything that the book says you shouldn't do. But I did one thing that I think is the most important when you want to be a public servant, is I open my eyes, my ears, and my heart.

Farai Chideya:

I have to say there are cities in the world that I feel such love for. Paris is one of them and San Juan is another. I came in a professional capacity to look at the impact of hurricane Maria. How did Maria change what your mission was as mayor?

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

First of all, the San Juan and the Puerto Rico that I knew and loved are there no more. We changed overnight. As it happens in any crises, all of the qualities and all of the difference between the ones that have and have not start surfacing and are there in 3D for everyone to see. It is mentioned that Puerto Rico lost about 30 million trees. And I once said we will not be able to hide our discrimination and our inequality behind Palm trees and piña coladas, meaning even nature decided like, "No, no, no. I'm not going to cover this poor neighborhood underneath the bridge with beautiful flowers. You're going to see it raw as it was."

Farai Chideya:

And you were out there. You were out there with people.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

I moved to the largest shelter in Puerto Rico, which was in San Juan. And I lived there for three and a half months. Because I figured I'm not better than anyone else. And if I'm there, I will make sure that people's needs are taken care of.

Farai Chideya:

Right.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

When there's no communication, there are decisions that are life and death that have to be made right on the spot. Not everyone wants to make those decisions because... And you have to forgive me if my voice starts cracking up a little bit. When you are in a situation like that, every decision that you make takes resources away from other people. So you know that if you decide to do something, you will not get somewhere else perhaps early enough. And I can guarantee you, it is not the smiles of the people that you save that stay with you, it is the silence of those that you do not get to. And every day I ask God to let them know that it was that we couldn't get to them, not that we did not want to get to them.

Farai Chideya:

Yeah. When hurricane Maria hit Puerto Rico, there was a lot of very disturbing value signaling, like, "Oh they need to take care of themselves" essentially. How did you deal with what could be called the abandonment of the whole island?

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

Well, Puerto Rico has a complicated relationship with the United States. There are Puerto Ricans that feel like second class citizens, which we undoubtedly are. And nowhere was it seen more when the neglect killed the Puerto Rican people. You can kill people with a gun or you can kill them with neglect. I even pleaded and begged the president at the time, and of course the response was "You are an island surrounded by water, lots and lots of water, ocean water and that's why it takes so long for aid to get there." No, that's not why it took so long. It took so long because we're people of color, we are a colony. And for that particular commander in chief, our lives were expendable. I often say I admire so much the principles upon which the US was founded that I want them for Puerto Rico.

Farai Chideya:

Yep.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

And it took me about five months for a reporter to ask me, "Why do you think this happened?"

Farai Chideya:

Right.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

It took me about five months to say, "Because of racism," because I just did not want to believe that people would go so far as to let others die because of who they were.

Farai Chideya:

Well, we will certainly continue to track how people like you, who are so instrumental to the future of Puerto Rico, are helping to give us understanding of the road ahead. And I thank you so much for your service and I thank you for talking to us. And in memory of your grandmother, thank you, Yulin.

Carmen Yulin Cruz:

Thank you for being a platform for so many voices, because this is what it's all about. People have the right and the duty to speak up and stand up.

Farai Chideya:

That was Carmen Yulin Cruz, former mayor of San Juan, Puerto Rico.

Farai Chideya:

Coming up next on the Our Body Politic Presents series, we've got The Brown Girls Guide to Politics, plus Sippin' the Political Tea on all things Supreme Court. That's on Our Body Politic.

Farai Chideya:

Welcome back to Our Body Politic. We are continuing our theme of women of color in office with our series Our Body Politic presents. We bring you stories and conversations from independent voices in audio. This week, we're featuring The Brown Girls Guide Politics podcast, hosted by A'shanti Gholar. This season, they are spotlighting black, brown, and indigenous women of color who are blazing trails in politics. In this episode you're about to hear from another former mayor, Dr. Sadaf Jaffer. The podcast producer Britney Martinez shared a bit about Jaffer and their conversation.

Britney Martinez:

She became the first Muslim woman mayor in the US when she was elected mayor of Montgomery township. Now she's taking those initiatives to the state level as the first Asian American woman and the first Muslim woman to be sworn into the New Jersey General Assembly. And on top of all that, she's also Dr. Jaffer, a research associate at Princeton University. I hope you enjoy this episode.

Farai Chideya:

And with no further ado, let's listen to part of that episode.

A’shanti Gholar:

Let's first dive into what put you on this trajectory to be an advocate, an elected official. What was it that drove this passion inside of you?

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

So I was always interested in public service. I went to the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown. I thought I wanted to go into diplomacy. But then I became very interested in my studies, particularly on South Asia and Muslim societies and I decided to pursue a PhD. So I was in Academia. I was pursuing my PhD. And then towards the end of my PhD program, I started thinking about what I was going to do after I was done. And I actually started looking towards local government because I saw that I just want to not just complain about things. I want to actually change them if I see something that needs to be changed. And I could see that my values that I had really only thought and learned about in terms of national politics or international politics could and should make an impact in local politics and in the state as well.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

So I started thinking about it, but I never had known anyone who'd run for office. And it was just this idea in my head. Usually when I have a crazy idea, I just start telling people about it and I put it out in the world. And so I was talking to a friend of mine. She was asking me what I was going to do after I was done with my PhD. And I said, "Well, I've been thinking about running for office, don't know anything about it. And she told me about Emerge. I Googled it and it was starting in New Jersey.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

So I applied, and within a few weeks I had done an interview and gotten into the program. That program really gave me the nuts and bolts understanding of how to connect to a state party or a county party or municipal party, and gave me the confidence so that when I was campaigning for someone for Congress and I was asked to run in my local election, I could say, "Okay. Yeah. I told Emerge that I was going to run within the next three years and had made a commitment to actually run. And so here's my opportunity to do so."

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

So I say that because I think we can have passions, we can have interests, but it's so important for underrepresented groups especially to have formal training and mentorship programs, because we don't have the informal networks that those who've traditionally been in power have. So that was very, very important for me. I was asked to run locally. I didn't win my first time as a ride-in. The second time I ran on the ballot and I won my seat, becoming the first Democrat in several years. And the only one at that time and then over the course of the next two years, my party took over the majority and I became the mayor. And then this opportunity opened up to run for state legislature. And again, people from the community approached me and said that they thought I would be a good representative for them, so I decided to pursue that opportunity as well. And now I'm in the state legislature in New Jersey.

A’shanti Gholar:

So you're a trailblazer. This season is all about trailblazers. So for you to become the first Muslim woman mayor in the country, you're now one of the first Asian women, first Muslim women in the New Jersey state legislature, and I know we've had lots of conversations just about being women of color, running for office, and then also your Muslim faith, so can you tell everyone just what that experience has been like, running in New Jersey which does have diversity, but we still always encounter of that ignorance I'm going to say around faith?

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

Yes.

A’shanti Gholar:

What has that been like?

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

I did mention obviously when I was running that I thought it was important to include diverse voices. Our town has a significant Asian American population, but I was often asked why considering that we have, maybe 30 to 40% Asian Americans in our town, why aren't they involved in politics? And my response to that was, if you don't see anyone who looks like you in a particular space, that gives a message that maybe you don't belong there. And I certainly have felt that in meetings when I would go like, "Okay, there's no one like me here."

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

When I did get that opportunity and I won my seat, there were people who were skeptical, I guess, that, "Oh, are people going to vote for an Asian American woman? Okay, you're Asian American, but you're Muslim. Are people who are not Muslim going to a vote for a Muslim candidate?" My response to that is that I'm not that cynical. I don't think that people are that close-minded and will never vote for someone who's different than them. I think that you need to approach the voters respectfully and just give your message, what you're planning to do for the community. And that's what vote are looking for. Someone to engage with and someone who is going to have their best interest at heart and shares common values with them.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

So those are the things that I focused on and being present in the community. And I think that that's really what spoke to people, that I was at all the community events and I was visible. I was responsive. I would answer questions. So that is what led to my victory. It wasn't until I was about to become mayor that people started asking, "Oh, has there ever been a south Asian American woman mayor in the country?" And there had, but never in New Jersey. "And has there ever been a Muslim woman mayor?" People started kind of digging around. There hadn't been. I was very nervous because I saw the negative attention that people like Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar have gotten at the congressional level. It was nerve wracking to think about that sort of attention coming to me from nefarious actors or those who wouldn't be happy to see this victory. But I think I grew in my comfort with as there were news stories and I think especially as I saw how important it was for community members to see this representation.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

When I would go to events, I remember I spoke at a mosque at one of their career seminars and I was talking about public service, and then I had parents bringing their daughters up afterwards saying, "Oh she's a mayor. You could be a mayor some day." And I saw how important that was for people. And so I've always tried to make myself as available as I can for different mentorship programs, for events, for panels, if somebody just has a question, because as I was saying earlier, our communities are new to having this type of power and having this sort of understanding of how the political system works. So I'm happy to spread that knowledge.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

But I also saw the practical implications of it in the course of my service. So for example, during the pandemic, someone approached me and let me know that undocumented members of our community were afraid to go to the food pantry and get the food aid that they needed because they thought that there might be immigration enforcement done or something. And so we arranged for staff members to deliver food aid to people if they were worried about coming in. I raised this at a call that I was on with a number of other mayors. Some of them were kind of incredulous. They said, "Oh, well, why do they need to be scared? I've never heard this. Why are you hearing this?" It wasn't until that moment that I realized that this group of mayors that I was regularly speaking to were all white and were not immigrants. So again, those communities would feel more comfortable approaching me and letting me know about this issue.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

Similarly, we saw rise in domestic violence over the course of the pandemic. It's a perennial problem, but definitely exacerbated. I had women from different racial and ethnic backgrounds approach me, let me know that they were experiencing domestic violence. And that I would try to get them the resources that they needed. And I also make sure that communications through the regular township communications included that information. And again, it was a very humbling experience because I thought to myself, "If there was a man serving as mayor of this community, would they feel comfortable approaching him and letting them know that they were experiencing domestic violence?" Maybe. But I think it seems more likely that seeing me and feeling that comfort level, they could come to me and ask for the help that they needed. And those to me are the examples that show why it's so important that our government be representative.

Farai Chideya:

You're listening to Our Body Politic Presents series. This week, we are bringing you part of the podcast The Brown Girls Guide to Politics. And in this episode, the podcast host A'shanti Gholar interviews Dr. Sadaf Jaffer, a trail blazing politician in the New Jersey General Assembly about her work and what fuels her goals. Let's continue listening.

A’shanti Gholar:

You campaigned last year, you won and you were campaigning during a pandemic, which we know adds just an entirely different layer to campaigning. This was interesting for us. We literally trained the women to run a certain way, and then we're like, "Okay. Here's new things we didn't talk about because we didn't train you during a pandemic." So what was that experience like having that extra burden of "Ooh, now everything's different?"

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

Well, I mean, I had served as mayor during the pandemic for one year so I was quite used to kind of the Zoom meetings and when numbers are low, having outdoor events or kind of gauging people's comfort. We just went with the flow, expect the unexpected and realized you might have an event. Maybe there's a spike at that time and people don't feel comfortable coming out. And you need to kind of find locations where you can be outdoors, but also making sure that we did have Zoom events too, but not too many because people also had Zoom fatigue.

A’shanti Gholar:

Fatigue.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

So trying to balance all of that out. We just adjusted. I think there is this sense that we're all in this together. It is what it is. It's been a long journey now that we've been in this pandemic. And I think in a way, it's made it even clearer to people why it's important to vote. So I think you just adjust your focus, your methods, and also the issues that you're raising with community members based on what's taking place. And we all know COVID's the most major thing that's been taking place in all of our lives for the past several years.

A’shanti Gholar:

And now you are serving in the state legislature. What has that been like to go from being mayor, to being in the State House with so many new colleagues, so much more stuff to learn? Tell us about the experience and anything exciting and cool that you've already been working on.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

For a good while, my town was really the center of my universe and I was involved in the nitty-gritty of every sort of community event, everything that was going on locally. Over the course of the campaign, I started meeting more people from throughout the state, party leaders and other community leaders. And yes, it was a whole new world in terms of statewide issues and legislation that we could think about. It's really empowering, because I would say as a local leader, you think about certain limits on what you can do. A lot of the issues that we faced are not just specific to a town, so it's hard to solve them within just the governance of that town. But now that I'm at the state level, we kind of maybe think bigger. How are we going to try to make sure that women from under resourced communities get what they need in the maternal child healthcare world? That's an issue that I've been meeting with a lot of advocates on, and it's something that I'm very passionate about.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

I'm very happy with the committees that I've been assigned to, which really do align with my interests. So I've been assigned to the health, education, and state and local government committees. On the health side, I've already been working on passing legislation that will make contraception access more easily accessible. Somewhere that connects both health and education. I'm really dedicated to increasing mental health resources in the school districts. And so I've introduced this Purple Ribbon Schools Program that will give a designation to schools that have high investment in mental health resources for their students. So those are some of the exciting things that we're starting to work on. But I'm also really honored to be able to listen to the community about what they're hoping to see and what issues they're facing and then be that voice for them.

A’shanti Gholar:

You're just such a great advocate for your community, for people across New Jersey, but especially for young people. And you've just done so much work to get young people involved and supporting them. Even as your time as mayor, you had your youth leadership council. Tell us a little bit about why that is a passion for you to make sure that you are building up the next generation. And I always told that it's so important to ask this question is because you actually don't see it a lot, but when you do see it, it's with the women who are the ones who are making that investment.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

There are various reasons for this. One is that just over the course of my public service, I've gotten to meet a lot of the youth leaders and I've just loved working with them. They're so passionate. They really think long term because all of the decisions that we're making now are going to impact them for many decades. They still have an optimism. I think what bothers me sometimes about grownups is that some of us are just very cynical. And I understand that because a lot of people have been through struggles and that leads them to feeling like maybe things can't change, but also that means that we've given up. We can't. We have to keep fighting. People, activists, and elected officials for generations before us have fought for us to have the rights that we have. It's not a perfect society, but we can only make it better by putting that effort in. And so I am always enthusiastic after meeting with young people because they are willing to do that.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

But also I think that there has been this gap in interest among young people in politics. Because if you go to political meetings, the average age is quite a lot older than me. So I think that that is not sustainable because as we were talking about, it's really important to have representative government and you need people from different backgrounds, different age groups to be involved to represent those people's interests and those people's concerns.

A’shanti Gholar:

It's so true. A few years ago, a mayor of a different city was talking and she was saying all the young were just like, "I just feel that the older people are always getting the things that they want." And she said, "I said to them they're the ones always showing up at the city council meetings. They're the ones always there advocating for themselves." And she's like, "You all need to be the ones there advocating for self because also you're going to be in the city a lot longer than these people." They're getting older. And she said, "After that, more of them like started coming when they realized, 'Okay. If they're showing up, then I should show up too'."

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

Right.

A’shanti Gholar:

So it all goes back to, we all have to use our voice.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely.

A’shanti Gholar:

Sadaf, I've enjoyed having you. Before we let you go, share with The BGG community one of your key lessons learned

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

People will try to distract you from your message.

A’shanti Gholar:

Ooh. Yeah.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

From what your vision is, from what your mission is. And they'll just throw things at you that are random, they're lies, they're misrepresenting you. But the important thing is for you to always stay on your message. And you need to ignore that. Because the more attention you give to it just can grow and grow. People don't want to get into mud slinging, or "This is true or this is not true." What they really want to hear is what you can do for them. What, as an elected official, you can do for them? But I'm sure this applies in other fields as well. That people who are threatened by you or they don't want you to succeed, they want to throw you off message. And so they'll kind of do weird things or put weird messages out there. But as long as you stay on message, that's really what's going to resonate with people because that's what they're going to remember.

Dr. Sadaf Jaffer:

So I would just say always be true to what your mission is, your value is, your message is. At the end of the day, no matter what happens, at least you'll know that you presented what you thought was important and that you put forward a message that whether you win or lose, will continue. And that would be my one thing that I've learned along this journey.

Farai Chideya:

That was the podcast The Brown Girls Guide to Politics with host A'shanti Gholar interviewing Dr. Sadaf Jaffer, the first Asian American woman and the first Muslim woman to be sworn into the New Jersey General Assembly. You can find the show wherever you get your podcast. And for more information on The Brown Girls Guide to Politics, you can visit thebgguide.com and find them on the socials @thebgguide.

Farai Chideya:

Coming up next, our weekly round table Sippin' The Political Tea gets into the latest from the Supreme Court. We've got Kim Wehle, professor of law at the University of Baltimore School of Law, plus Our Body Politic contributor, Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor of law at Georgetown University. You are listening to Our Body Politic.

Farai Chideya:

Each week on the show, we bring you a round table called Sippin' The Political Tea. Joining me this week is Kim Wehle. She is a professor of law at the University of Baltimore Law School and an op-Ed columnist for The Atlantic and Politico. Her latest book is How to Think like a Lawyer and Why, a common sense guide to everyday dilemmas. And who doesn't have everyday dilemmas? Welcome, Kim.

Kim Wehle:

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Farai Chideya:

And we've also got the distinguished Our Body Politic contributor, Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor of law at Georgetown University. Hi, Tiffany.

Tiffany Jeffers:

Hi, Farai.

Farai Chideya:

So this week I wanted to ask both of you to discuss all things Supreme Court. Tiffany, you have been covering president Biden's historic Supreme Court nomination for Our Body Politic every step of the way.

Kamala Harris:

On this vote, the yays are 53, the nays are 47, and this nomination is confirmed.

Farai Chideya:

So let's start with your thoughts on how this process has gone for Judge Jackson and the significance of this moment.

Tiffany Jeffers:

Farai, this has been such an exhilarating time for our country and particularly for black women. Seeing Judge Jackson's poise while she was being questioned at times dishearteningly by Republican senators, having her life's work being challenged in ways that were really actually mischaracterization of everything she's done to date, but seeing her sit with grace, respond powerfully, speaking her truth and watching the nation, her family and her colleagues support her has been really important, I think, and part of our healing process as we try to move forward and really restore faith in the court system, particularly in the Supreme Court. But it's also been really difficult to watch a black woman being attacked, being mischaracterized and having to watch her sit and take the, what I'll call rhetorical abuse, from senators. She's been talked over, she's been demeaned. It's been both exhilarating and painful.

Farai Chideya:

I want to refer to some of the coverage that's been going on, Melanie L. Campbell, the president and CEO of the National Coalition on Black Civic Participation said that it was traumatizing to watch the hearings. And you know, politics is politics. What do we do when we have this feeling that there is not just an individual judgment, but that there's a collective judgment of black womanhood, which is kind of what I felt during the hearings. I don't know if you felt the same way.

Tiffany Jeffers:

I did feel the same way, Faria. I wasn't nominated, I didn't have to sit through hearings, but I felt personally attacked by their questioning. It was very personal, because black women experienced those types of microaggressions and macroaggressions every single day. To see it play out on a national scale in this way has been very traumatic for many black women, myself included.

Farai Chideya:

Kim, I'm going to turn to you. What do you think of the level of support across the aisle for judge Jackson and what it means for this nomination? You know, the Supreme Court has become a real political football.

Kim Wehle:

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court confirmation hearings have become kind of a snapshot of where we are as a country. There's deeply embedded racism. There's deeply embedded misogyny, and we are more polarized than ever. I think the fact that there are even three senators in this moment when someone like RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, was put on with 80 or 90% support or numbers that... It was just unbelievable in the past. It's kind of a glimmer of hope. I think it traces back to the dignity and integrity and extraordinary resume of soon-to-be Justice Brown Jackson. I mean to watch her engage with Corey Booker about who she is as a person, who she stands for, these are universal human values. And so there was this kind of light in the darkness. But the fact that three senators stood up for what is right and the Republican party understanding that they will be vilified, I do think that's something we can feel good about even though the numbers are so tiny.

Farai Chideya:

Okay, Tiffany, I want to dig into these no hold barred attacks and sometimes counterfactual attacks against Judge Brown Jackson. To name just one, Senator Ted Cruz alleged that lawyers become public defenders, which Judge Jackson was for a number of years, because their heart is with the murderers. Let's listen.

Ted Cruz:

She came out of law school and she clerked for Justice Breyer on the Supreme Court and she became a federal public defender. You and I have both known public defenders. There are public defenders people go and do that because their heart is with criminal defendants. Their heart is with the murderers, with the criminals, and that's who they're rooting for.

Farai Chideya:

What's your reaction to that statement from Senator Ted Cruz?

Tiffany Jeffers:

Our constitution is framed to protect those most vulnerable, particularly as it relates to crimes, those accused of crimes. And the presumption of innocence rests with those people. And so it's not a defender who has a heart for murderers. It's a public defender who is protecting the constitutional rights of those accused with sometimes violent and horrific crimes and demanding that they be afforded every constitutional right that they are entitled to, including due process of law. And so that disgust me as a former prosecutor. We need to focus on the constitution. If the Republicans want to use the constitution as their guiding beacon, then use the constitution as the guiding beacon and protect the most vulnerable people that the constitution was enacted to protect.

Farai Chideya:

Kim, Tiffany has spoken a bit on the show previously about her background as a prosecutor and how the idea of having a potential Supreme Court justice with a public defender background is unusual. How do you view this question of who gets the protections of the constitution and why and how?

Kim Wehle:

Well, a couple of points that really are not left or right. We hear from people on the right about "My freedoms. My liberties," we are talking about confining the power of government. And so to have a system where you've got experienced qualified lawyers representing criminal defendants in the system that is there in place to keep the system in check to protect everyone against overreaching government abuse, not just what Ted Cruz would call criminals. Having someone like Judge Brown Jackson, her representing someone as a public defender, that's actually a public service to everyone because it makes the entire system more accountable and it produces better decisions. So on so many levels that was a disgusting political sort of wink and nod to those that kind of vote based on prejudices. It had absolutely nothing to do with the constitution and legitimacy as the system, which we all should hold up and celebrate regardless of where you are on the political spectrum or even where you are on the question of crime, which I know right now is going to become a huge issue in the next round of elections.

Farai Chideya:

You're listening to Sippin' The Political Tea on Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. This week we're doing a special round table on Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson's nomination to the Supreme Court with Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor of law at Georgetown University and Kim Willy professor of law at the University of Baltimore Law School.

Farai Chideya:

I wanted to turn to another question of the Supreme Court, January 6th and Justice Thomas. We now know that Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas' wife, Virginia Thomas attended the Stop the Steal rally on January 6th, which I also did as a reporter, and was texting to then White House Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, as Donald Trump fought to overturn the 2020 election, which I was not doing. And some of her text include phrases like "Do not concede" and "The majority knows Biden and the left is attempting the greatest heist of our history." Given that information, some are calling for Justice Thomas to recuse himself from the January 6th cases, or even resign.

Farai Chideya:

Now, Kim, you have written multiple books on how we should look at the constitution and how we should look at the law. How are you making sense of Ginni Thomas's actions, its impact on the ability of her husband, Justice Thomas, to operate as a member of the Supreme Court?

Kim Wehle:

My view of the constitution really boils down, as I indicated earlier, to accountability. I mean it turns out there is a federal statute that on its face would appear to have required Justice Thomas, given wife's well documented, pretty radical right wing sort of lobbying efforts, not just around January 6th, to be very careful about even the appearance of impropriety or impartiality. And he didn't do that. There were three cases around the November election that he did not recuse himself. He was the sole dissenting vote in a case that ultimately the Supreme Court allowed the national archives to turn over White House documents relating to January 6th. He said no. And now we know it was leaked to apparently through the Mark Meadows, he was texting with Mark Meadows, urging him to take steps to overthrow the election.

Kim Wehle:

And so if we assume he had some inkling this was going on, he owed it to the integrity of the court and the legitimacy of the court to step down from these cases. He had an incentive arguably to protect his spouse. He should have stepped down and he didn't. But at a minimum, my position, this Congress needs to investigate justice Thomas's relationship to the January 6th lead up so that we, the people, can understand if there's that kind of serious bias on the United States Supreme Court. Because these justices, when they interpreted the constitution, they're basically amending it. When you put five people on the court who are unelected, they're there for life and they interpret something around abortion or around guns or around civil rights, that acts like an actual amendment to the constitution.

Farai Chideya:

Tiffany, how are you perceiving this moment? The Supreme Court has been heavily analyzed among kind of our chattering classes in the past few years, but I also don't know to what degree most people understand the ways in which the court works. And frankly, I'm still learning. One of the things I love about being a journalist is continuing to learn about systems. But what do we do now when there is, in my personal opinion, a clear and present danger to what we consider democracy? How are you making sense at this moment?

Tiffany Jeffers:

Well, I don't think I am. Number one. I think I'm dealing with it in real time just like everyone else. As Kimberly said, most lawyers have a little bit more of an understanding of these frameworks and how laws are made, how laws are amended, how laws are implemented and enforced. But as I'm seeing in real time, the dismantling of the very foundation of our democracy, I actually don't know what's happening and/or how to respond or how to deal with it. As we become more politicized, the things that I believed in that made me want to go to school, I believe in the rule of law, I believe in the constitution, I believe in the separation of powers, and now that I'm seeing the breaking point of what our democracy can take, can withstand, it's hard. It's really difficult.

Tiffany Jeffers:

The constitution was created in a moment where monarchs rule the day. You couldn't just be free. You couldn't just be what you wanted to be. You didn't just have rights. This was new. And I think it was brilliant and beautiful that the framers were able to craft this document showcasing equality and liberties and freedom from being set on a path based on birth. And then at the same time, they dehumanize an entire race of people and compromise in ways that we're so inhumane. We're still dealing with the repercussions and consequences 200 plus years later. All of that is coming to a head today. Because we haven't quite frankly dealt properly with the sin of slavery and the damage that years and years of systemic racism has done to our nation, the fabric of our democracy is literally ripping at the seems. And it's a scary time.

Farai Chideya:

I'm going to end on this, which is that the framework that I'm carrying forward right now to look at law, jurisprudence, the constitution is bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy is something I've dealt with as a woman, as a black person, as someone who at this stage of my life identifies as bisexual or queer, and all of the ways in which my being is supported or unsupported under the law. And that includes in workplaces, as I walk on the street. There have been oral arguments for Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization heard in December, 2021. The decision which could be expected by the end of the summer could potentially overrule Roe v. Wade. I want to end on this question of what bodily autonomy means and how the Supreme Court will be assessing it. Kim?

Kim Wehle:

I think there's a lot of mythology and misunderstanding around the underpinnings of Roe versus Wade. It's often traced back to Griswold versus Connecticut around contraception and this idea of privacy. But truly, it goes back to a series of cases at the beginning of the 20th century, where basically the Supreme Court was trying to find ways in the constitution to keep government from requiring parent to only teach English to their kids, government from deciding whether you can enter into a contract, government deciding what profession you get to have.

Kim Wehle:

So I think you're exactly right, Farai. In appointing to bodily integrity, everyone wants to have some independence and liberty from government. And we've seen historically government picking and choosing certain populations who get liberties and do not. On people of color, of course, hundreds of years of enslaving people of color. But I think people that haven't had that kind of burden seem to think that the constitution is just there to protect them. And it doesn't spell this stuff out really for anyone with the kind of specificity that people think.

Kim Wehle:

So people across the aisle have to persuade hearts and minds. We have to get back to common sense of a value system tolerating a poison points in view. And ironically, I think lawyers might be the last sort of category of people that have to like people that they disagree with. They have to figure out a way to disagree respectfully, because there's no way to practice law otherwise. So I think it's going to have to come down to an apolitical solution where we look to each other and each other's common humanity, regardless of race or regardless of gender politics. And I think the way there is not to point fingers, the way there is to try to connect on a more human level.

Farai Chideya:

Tiffany, what are you keeping your eyes on, either for the Supreme Court directly or in general?

Tiffany Jeffers:

I'm keeping my eye on truth because if we don't have a common sense of truth in fact, then our definitions are going to be off and our definition of autonomy and liberty and justice and freedom won't be in sync. And when we're not functioning in the same mind space to understand what these words mean, as Kimberly said, what the constitution is actually protecting, who it's protecting, what are its capabilities, then we can't even get a point of true autonomy in any sense. And so before we get anywhere, I think we have to start a conversation about what we're going to accept as truth. Can we see each other's humanity? Can we allow people to speak their truth? Not from a lens of hate, but from a sense of, "Hey, we all deserve to live in this world."

Farai Chideya:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, that a completely beautiful place to leave it. I'm just so grateful to both of you. I have thoroughly enjoyed this.

Farai Chideya:

We have been speaking with Kimberly Wehle, professor of law at the University of Baltimore Law School and author and op-Ed columnist for the Atlantic and Politico. And also with Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor of law at Georgetown University.

Farai Chideya:

Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts. 

Farai Chideya:

Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm the executive producer and host, Farai Chideya. Our Co-executive producer is Jonathan Blakely. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booker and producer. Emily J. Daly is our producer. Our associate producer is Natyna Bean.

Farai Chideya:

Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Steve Lack and Lauren Schild. And engineered by Mike Goehler [GAY-lur] and Archie Moore.

Farai Chideya:

And thank you again to the team at The Brown Girls Guide to Politics, with host A’shanti Gholar, producers Brittany Martinez and Carmen Borca-Carrillo, executive producer Jenny Kaplan, and with editorial support from Aya Clarke. The Brown Girls Guide to Politics is a Wonder Media Network production.

Farai Chideya:

This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.