This week, Our Body Politic celebrates its 100th episode. Host Farai Chideya reflects on some of the show’s most impactful moments of news and political coverage over the past two years with OBP regular contributors Karen Attiah, columnist for the Washington Post and Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor at Georgetown University Law Center. The trio examines the current political atmosphere, its origins, and reflect on how issues like reproductive rights, the COVID-19 crisis, and the aftermath of the Jan. 6 Insurrection could impact this year’s midterms elections and why cultivating hope and safeguarding democracy is more important than ever.
Farai Chideya:
Hi, folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. We just hit our 100th episode. Woo-hoo. So to help us celebrate, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting this independent show, if you are able. You can find out more at ourbodypolitic.com/donate. We're here for you, with you, and because of you. Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. I am really grateful to be here with you as I am every single week. But listen up, today is a new milestone on our part. This is our 100th show. Our Body Politic has been on the air on public radio and podcasting for nearly two years now through a presidential election, an insurrection, a pandemic and far more. We've also been here for the joy, healing and community that we've all manifested during these trying times.
Farai Chideya:
None of this would be possible without you, the listeners and community that we made this show for. I've been a reporter most of my life covering America and the world. I've sat in the house of a clan leader, so I could tape his story and also sat with President Nelson Mandela in his home after 9/11 tape recording as he spoke to a small group of journalists.
Farai Chideya:
So I thought I'd seen a lot until now when democracy is so clearly in peril. This era has really tested me emotionally, including the way I think about what journalism can and can't do. Because of my years of reporting on extremism, I saw January 6 coming, which I've talked about probably too many times on this show. I've been frustrated that we didn't do more as a society to read the tea leaves and prevent this crisis of democracy.
Farai Chideya:
Now, I believe journalism has impact, but that impact is often indirect. It takes a long arc to achieve. So I've realized more than ever while doing Our Body Politic that we want to talk about key issues like insurrection, voting rights and reproductive justice. And we also want and need to talk about mental health, rest, joy and wellness. This is a marathon, not a sprint. I had a really amazing conversation the other day with a ride share driver in New York who saw my name on his app and then showed me he had our show on his feed.
Farai Chideya:
He told me how useful our show was to him and to his wife and how they loved practical advice on finances from Michelle Singletary, as just one example. By the way, Craig turned his wife on to our show. Now, we are by and about black women and all women of color. And we are for everyone of every gender and race who wants to listen and join us on our journey. So Craig, thanks for the ride and for the props. And for all of you listening, thank you for keeping us loft. We are gearing up for the midterms and there's so much more that we want to share with you.
Farai Chideya:
We also would not be where we are today without the incredible roster of contributors who grace our air. So I really want to spend a lot of this show looking back at our first 100 episodes and ahead at our future with two of our long-term contributors. We've got Karen Attiah columnist for The Washington Post. Hey, Karen.
Karen Attiah:
Hey, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
And Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor at Georgetown University Law Center. Hey, Tiffany.
Tiffany Jeffers:
Hey, Farai. So exciting to be here for this.
Farai Chideya:
So it is absolutely thrilling that we've reached 100 episodes and there's a million things that happen behind the scenes. Something has to be rescheduled this, that, and the other. And we have all of this energy that goes into producing the show. But I have to say the energy that fuels me really comes from talking to both of you and our other contributors, and our guest, also to our listeners. I just talked a little bit about Craig, a gentleman who made my day by telling me that he got his wife listening to Our Body Politic. So, Karen, have you met anybody who told you, they've listened to the show?
Karen Attiah:
Yeah, absolutely. I remember I was actually at my gym training for Muay Thai and a gentleman came in. I'm like sweaty and looking crazy and stuff, and he was like, "Wait, I just heard you in the car." He was listening to Our Body Politic on NPR, on the local radio station here, and it was just a really interesting, like he gets to see me crazy and sweaty in real life, and then I hope, I presume, I was sounding smart on that episode that day. So yeah, that was cool. An older white gentleman actually and yeah, we're reaching the masses.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. That's great. And what about you, Tiffany?
Tiffany Jeffers:
Yeah, I've had those same types of run-ins as Karen. I had so two fun stories. One of the parents in my kid's PTO organization at their school was like, "Hey, are you on Our Body Politic?" And I said, "I sure am." And so that was really exciting. Also, a white man, which I thought was interesting. And then I got a random text from an old friend on the West Coast whose husband was listening in the car and said, "I think this is your friend from high school, Tiffany. You talk about her from Facebook."
Farai Chideya:
That's so great.
Tiffany Jeffers:
"I think she's on this show. I heard on the radio in the car." And I thought that was really exciting too.
Farai Chideya:
Love it. So both of you also have done some fantastic events for us too, as we celebrate this landmark. Tiffany, you were the crowd favorite when we did an in-person event in New York shortly after the leaked draft of the Dobbs decision on abortion. You came from DC just on your own and it really meant a lot to me. And I just got you to say a few words. So what was it like to see some of our crowd in person?
Tiffany Jeffers:
It was exhilarating, Farai. At that event, I talked about how that was my first time sort of back out in the open, since we don't even know what's happening with the pandemic. Are we out of the pandemic? Are we in the pandemic? So it was thrilling to be in person with people. And then just it reiterated for me your awesomeness and your amazingness. All these people were there to support you and build you up. And the work that you do just confirming how important this work is. It gave me so much life and energy. And I went home recharged to get through finals for the spring.
Farai Chideya:
Oh, that's so great. Yeah. You just put so much light out in the world. And then, Karen, you were part of a virtual event that we did in December with the brilliant Errin Haines of The 19th, another one of our contributors. And we took a moment then to remember somebody the world just lost, the visionary author activist and academic Bell Hooks. Here's a little bit of what Errin had to say about Bell Hooks on the show.
Errin Haines:
Bell Hooks was about nothing if she wasn't about accountability. And just as Karen was kind of saying, really just redefining or reclaiming that mantle of strong black women to not just be the person that everybody else counts on, but the person who strength was also in their vulnerability, was also in that kind of calling for strengthened numbers in terms of community, but also using that strength to then say that people must be accountable.
Farai Chideya:
Karen, what did Bell Hook's work mean to you? And how does it relate to what we do each week here on the show?
Karen Attiah:
I just remember that episode, that virtual taping for the event, and it was just really healing and powerful to be able, honestly, to talk about it with you and Errin, to be able to process in real time the loss of such an icon and a figure who, particularly for black women, for how you talk so much about what brings you joy, what brings you peace, what brings you healing? And recognizing that rest, and healing, and pleasure, and love, even our acts of resistance are political acts.
Karen Attiah:
I just keep coming back even now with the years that we've had, the difficult years with the Trump years and the pandemic, and racial justice issues and her words about healing that healing cannot be done in isolation, that healing comes from communion with others, I think I still think about and I'm still grateful for being able to discuss that with you guys.
Karen Attiah:
So Our Body Politic literally is the embodiment of that, right, of community, of integration, of moving forward, I think, as a people, as a society. So yeah, I mean, I love that. "I love that for us", as the kids say.
Farai Chideya:
Absolutely.
Karen Attiah:
We're able to do that with each other and in a way with our audience.
Farai Chideya:
We actually made a montage of joy, the producers here at Our Body Politic. So let's take a listen to that.
Akoto Ofori-Atta:
Many things give me joy. I like to work out and move in ways that feel really good to me.
Marcus Mabry:
My kids just give me tremendous amount of joy.
Felicia Pride:
I'm actually very excited about getting older because I feel a stronger sense of self, experience, and wisdom.
Imara Jones:
We have so much trans joy and that in the midst of pain and marginalization, there is also the hope and the creativity, which keeps us alive and growing.
Danielle Smith:
I believe in my own writing as a space for me to really just be known and understood. I literally enjoy it.
Farai Chideya:
That was co-founder of Capital B, Akoto Ofori-Atta; CNN's Marcus Mabry; writer, producer and director, Felicia Pride; Imara Jones, the creator of TransLash Media; and music journalist, Danielle Smith, all talking about joy. And Akoto, congratulations on your new baby and all the joy that, that brings. So, Tiffany, Karen talked a little bit about joy. What brings you joy? How do you infuse joy into the intense work that you do?
Tiffany Jeffers:
Oh man, Farai, when we talk about joy on Our Body Politic, it changes my life really to hear women of color share and put into the atmosphere what gives them joy. That in and of itself gives me joy. Coming and doing this work gives me joy. Remembering that I have the capacity to give love in spite of anything that's happening, gives me joy, and just my power. We're living in a time right now where I would say women of color and black women specifically because that's the group that I identify with are freer than we've been. It's so weird. There's this dichotomy of freedom and sort of not freedom, but I lean towards the freedom and we're freer in a sense than we've ever been.
Tiffany Jeffers:
We have more mobility than we've ever had and we can be ourselves in ways that are historical, I would say. And just seeing blackness uninhibited, liberated blackness gives me so much joy, and I get that from this show.
Farai Chideya:
Well, stay with us, Tiffany and Karen. We are definitely going to be going deeper into the past, present, and future of Our Body Politic with joy as we continue this show.
Farai Chideya:
That was two of our regular contributors, Karen Attiah columnist for The Washington Post and Georgetown University Law Center, associate professor Tiffany Jeffers, celebrating our 100th episode. I also want to share a moment of some political insights guests have shared on the show over the past two years. Here's US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Marcia Fudge, US Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and Georgia State Senator Dr. Michelle Au.
Marcia Fudge:
Our systems are permeated by racism and so the systems have to change. When you make daycare costs $30,000 a year to go to a good one, you have excluded most of the population of this country.
Elizabeth Warren:
We really need to be pushing on the things that help build up our economy and create opportunity for everyone. Raising minimum wage, you bet. Universal childcare so that every one of our babies gets a real chance going forward.
Michelle Au:
We cannot live in a state where it is easier to purchase a firearm and killing people the same day, but hard to vote. This is an opportunity to examine what kind of priorities we have as a state and what we want to be moving forward.
Farai Chideya:
Coming up next, Karen, Tiffany and I continue our celebration of the first 100 episodes of Our Body Politic and look ahead at what lies in the future. That's on Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. If you're just joining us, we're celebrating 100 episodes of the show. Yes. And we are chopping up where we have been and what comes next with two of our brilliant contributors, Washington Post columnists, Karen Attiah and Georgetown law professor, Tiffany Jeffers. Hey, Karen and Tiffany. Welcome back to the continuation of episode 100. And I want us to focus a bit on what's happened during these epic and sometimes anxious two years that we've been on the air. One issue that we've been covering consistently is abortion and reproductive justice. Here are a couple of key voices that we've had on the show, starting with investigative reporter, Jessica Bruder, author of the book, Nomadland and the Atlantic magazine cover story, The Abortion Underground.
Jessica Bruder:
Reproductive rights aren't something that's given to us by the state, by the church, by the government, by anyone. These are rights that are inherent to us as humans. So how can they be given and how can they be taken away?
Michele Goodwin:
Let's start with the fact that Justice Alito refers to fetuses. He refers to unborn child. The constitution makes no reference to fetuses, embryos or unborn children. What the constitution does say in the 14th Amendment is that citizens of this country are people who are born.
Farai Chideya:
So the second voice that we heard in that little duet was UC Irvine's chancellor's professor Michelle Goodwin on the Dobbs decision. And that was in a conversation with you, Tiffany. Tiffany, we've seen citizens in Kansas defeat a constitutional amendment to ban abortion by a landslide. And we've seen very different decisions in other states about how those states will proceed. So what kinds of conversations do we need to have about reproductive justice and abortion now and moving forward?
Tiffany Jeffers:
We need to take the politics out of the conversation as it relates to reproductive justice and remember that this is about humanity, this is about rights, and this is about choice. It's not about Republicans and it's not about Democrats. So when we put ideological frameworks around this conversation, then the conversation stops because people can't in this day and age, get past their own political beliefs to have a conversation about what's best for society and what's safest for any one particular person that may be experiencing pregnancy at any given point in time. And so as we're having these conversations, it needs to be about humanity. People that give birth are humans and all humans have the inherent right to choose how their body exists in this society, in this world.
Tiffany Jeffers:
So that's where the tenor and tone of the conversation should focus. I don't know where we go from here. I was so excited to see what happened in Kansas. And then as you said, many other states are having the antithesis of what happened in Kansas happen in their legislatures and by their voting body. So it'll be interesting moving forward, but I think the conversation should focus on the inherent right as it relates to reproductive justice and not the political persuasion of any one particular person engaged in the conversation.
Farai Chideya:
And Karen, one thing, a lot of people in my circle have been talking about is that black women and other women of color, as well as low income white women have been sounding the alarm for years on the erosion of reproductive rights and many middle class and wealthy white women who support access to abortion could not believe that this moment came. Does that resonate with you?
Karen Attiah:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as we tragically know, there's an epidemic of black maternal mortality in this country. And so in many ways, the right to a safe and autonomous chance to give birth safely or not give birth safely in many ways due to systemic racism and so many other factors has been denied black women. So looking at the convergence of Roe v. Wade being overturned and the storm of black maternal mortality, I mean, again, it's one of those things where whatever happens to the "least of us" black women is we're the canaries in the coal mine for the bodily rights of others to be taken away and the access to safe options for family planning, however that goes.
Karen Attiah:
So as Tiffany said, it really is just really tragic that it's become such a political issue and not an issue broadly of what does it mean to be a free person in this country, liberty. I wish it was framed similar to how the right likes to frame things in terms of freedom and liberty. I see this as a very fundamental attack on our right to be free, autonomous people in this country. And the fact that it shouldn't be the case that our rights as human beings depend on which state we live in. Right?
Farai Chideya:
Yeah.
Karen Attiah:
Which is unfortunate.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. I mean, Tiffany, can you talk a little bit about federalism? One of the things that I'm worried about is that we are moving from federalism to feudalism where it's kind of like anything goes anyone's bodily autonomy or rights can be subject to revocation at any point. And a lot of people are looking at the era of the reconstruction as an era that provides some of the lessons of how people revoke laws that are pluralistic and just, whether it's around the aftermath of the Colfax massacre of black voters, any number of things that rolled back rights in that era, what sort of historical frameworks are you looking at? And are you worried about this prospect of federalism becoming feudalism?
Tiffany Jeffers:
I am worried in a sense, Farai, because what's happening with Trumpism and that brand of Republicanism is that the rules don't exist anymore. And so we had of historical norms and rule of law where there were gauges around what was acceptable. And our ability to move freely throughout the United States and have those same rights honored and respected state by state was just inherent in federalism. That's the agreement for existing as a state within this country. We all use the dollar. We have these certain things that we've just decided as a country, as a unified body of voters, this is what we're going to accept.
Tiffany Jeffers:
But now when you see states criminalizing the travel to obtain a safe abortion, that extracts your ability to move freely throughout the United States as a citizen, which is something that's constitutionally guaranteed. And so I do see a shift from, as you said, Farai federalism to feudalism where people can't just exist in the United States freely, as Karen said. It makes me think of sundown towns. Black people have always had limits on what we were able to do in the United States that were different than white mobility or white existence. So we couldn't just drive through the United States at night freely and expect to be welcomed into any hotel or gas station or food establishment.
Tiffany Jeffers:
And so our people, I think it's maybe in our DNA to understand that we're not always welcome. But now seeing the criminalization linked to the intention to leave and to move and to have autonomy over your body, black people weren't necessarily criminalized for traveling state to state, but they weren't welcomed. So this is a new brand on something that has, as you said, started in reconstruction to minimize access, minimize rights. They're shifting it and adding this criminal component to it, which is really, really dangerous.
Tiffany Jeffers:
I mean, we should be out in the streets ringing alarm bells. This is a scary time. I'm laughing, but it's a trauma response because it is a really, really, really scary time. I'm actually in Georgia and recently went to Stone Mountain and saw etched in stone those Civil War soldiers who lost the war etched in this mountain, and it shocked me how America can reframe history in ways that are so dangerous. And we're at that point in time again, and it's alarming to me. I think we should be really scared.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya and we're celebrating our 100th episode today with two of the shows longtime contributors, Karen Attiah, Washington Post columnist and Tiffany Jeffers associate professor at Georgetown University Law Center.
Farai Chideya:
Karen, you've been reporting from Texas, which is your home state and the land of the Attiah's as well as Beyonce, as well as The Alamo and many other signifiers. How does all of this resonate with you?
Karen Attiah:
Yeah. We're talking in many ways in terms of place and geographical states. I think a lot about the fact that, again, another overlay to all of this is the role of technology and the surveillance of all these issues. Just when all this happened, it's what are the implications for a women or girls who use period trackers on their apps? If there is a miscarriage, is there a risk that authorities will want to see their phone to be able to check and see whether or not there's possible criminal charges, things like that. Facebook or any of these social media companies, what their role is going to be in adhering to this patch-workof laws regarding abortion, regarding girls and women's rights, right?
Karen Attiah:
I think a lot about, you know, to add to the scariness and here I am chuckling, trauma response as well. Just thinking about how, I don't know, 10 years ago, we thought that social media, Facebook, Twitter would be big tools for freedom, for liberation, for democracy, and all of that. If we're looking at a scenario where Facebook will turn over information on women and girls who are trying to leave to seek abortion care, that really isn't extremely scary. Again, knowing also the power and the reach of Facebook and just how much we tie our lives to smartphones and the technology that we have. So, yeah, it's scary.
Farai Chideya:
Which are all tracking mechanisms.
Karen Attiah:
Right.
Tiffany Jeffers:
Right.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. I mean, among my other many jobs covered data security for a while for The Intercept, and I just have something of an affinity for understanding where we're going. And so, first of all, there's all of the questions of why people use social security numbers as an authenticator when that makes it much more vulnerable to have that information stolen, cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Farai Chideya:
But there's also just the basic question of whether we are outsourcing functions that would be better left to government or to individuals in terms of our privacy to get the services that were being asked to use things for. Even I look at two-factor authentication. It's great in some ways, but it also assumes people have a smartphone and it also has become a real issue for people in the disability community, for some older people to manage the onslaught of two-factor authentication.
Farai Chideya:
So we put a pin in reproductive justice and bodily autonomy. I also want to talk about something else that's at the intersection of politics and health. Reproductive justice is in one way, another thing that is COVID. And here's a bit of our interview with Representative Veronica Escobar of Texas's 16th district based in El Paso.
Veronica Escobar:
The coronavirus pandemic has exposed something that many of us have seen our entire lives, which is a chasm of difference in resources and opportunities between the haves and the have-nots in our country.
Farai Chideya:
And so COVID has changed and how we respond to it has changed as well, but one very real ongoing crisis is long COVID. And we may not know the depths of that yet. So we spoke with molecular biologist and science educator, Dr. Raven the Science Maven who was sharing her journey as a public scientist on her Twitter page with over 130,000 followers.
Dr. Raven the Science Maven:
It's hard. It can feel really lonely, especially when people don't understand what you're going through, especially when they look at you and they say, "Well, you're skinny. You look healthy." There's always so much going on underneath it all. And so it can be frustrating, but there's been a lot of teachable moments in the past few months for me to talk about chronic illness and disability and what it means to me.
Farai Chideya:
And we are really glad that Dr. Raven has posted recently that she's feeling better. Karen, you had COVID and in a recent newsletter, yes, everyone must subscribe to Karen Attiah's newsletter at The Washington Post, just saying. Anyway, in a newsletter you revisited how much COVID took out of you. So what are you keeping an eye on with COVID and how it's changed our lives?
Karen Attiah:
Yeah. I mean, I shared how when I got COVID. I was in the best shape of my life and I had a "mild case" and I suffered from just debilitating fatigue for almost two months. And it just really opened my eyes again to the prospect of my function was limited. I was cognitively, temporarily, at least a bit disabled. I guess what I'm looking for and I feel better now, but I know there are so many thousands, hundreds of thousands, so many had it so much worse than I did. And so I guess what I am looking for is just how our corporations are going to respond.
Karen Attiah:
I mean, this is a labor rights issue, frankly. These issues we're going to see, or we're already seeing something like 2.4% of the workforce not able to work because of long COVID. Americans being are super optimistic cells, and we're talking about recession and labor shortages, and yet it's so rare that you actually hear the impact of the fact that people are sick and a lot of people have died, or otherwise cannot work at their full capacity. So I wish we had a culture where we openly discussed what a society should look like and should be when we have a mass disabling event. Right?
Farai Chideya:
Yeah.
Karen Attiah:
So I'm glad for people who are... That's why I shared my story. I'm glad for people who are speaking out about what it's like to live with long COVID or other effects. I'm just hoping that our bosses, managers, corporations, those who are responsible for framing what's actually happening in our economy and how that intersects with public health, I just hope that they're listening and adjusting.
Farai Chideya:
And Tiffany, any thoughts here?
Tiffany Jeffers:
I think it's just important to remember that folks living with chronic illness understand that managing their illness can be a full-time job. And if you think about what's going to happen with long COVID, employers, as you said, Karen, need to really, really be aware of that. The effort and energy it takes to manage those illnesses.
Farai Chideya:
That was part of our celebration of the first 100 episodes of Our Body Politic. And here are some of our guests from the past 100 episodes, having their say.
Nikole Hannah-Jones:
The history we've been taught does not explain the country in which we live. We've been taught the history of a country that does not exist. And so therefore we're really unprepared to understand what we see around us.
Nsé Ufot:
During the 2020 general, many voters woke up in Metro Atlanta to learn that over 100 polling locations had been changed within the three or four days before the November general election. And it's particularly disturbing because there was a time when we would observe very blatant acts of voter suppression and take pictures, take videos and be reasonably assured that there is someone on the other end of that call who is going to investigate. I don't exactly feel that way now.
Reginald Dwayne Betts:
We have long allowed a system to operate in our name that is radically unjust. And what undergirds the story is our inability to understand how to respond to true harm and how to do it in a way that doesn't strip anybody of dignity.
Farai Chideya:
That was author and reporter, Nicole Hannah Jones, Nsé Ufot, chief executive officer of the New Georgia Project, and poet and lawyer, Reginald Dwayne Betts. Coming up next, Karen, Tiffany and I continue our celebration of the first 100 episodes of Our Body Politic and look ahead at what lies in the future.
Tiffany Jeffers:
We're going either towards a third reconstruction or towards a civil war. That's where we're going. There's no in between with democracy. You can't have half democracy. So either we're going to fight and rebuild American democracy or we're going to let it unravel.
Farai Chideya:
That's on Our Body politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. I'm here with longtime show contributors, Tiffany Jeffers, associate professor at Georgetown law and Karen Attiah, columnist at The Washington Post. We started this show with some generous launch support from KPCC, KCRW and KQED, who I will always thank. But the decision to continue the show was a huge risk for me since our team took on all the financial responsibility for keeping the show going. I do not take that lightly and I want to thank everybody who's helped us thrive on air.
Farai Chideya:
I wanted to take a risk on us on creating space for women of color to produce news media for the good of all audiences. And ladies, getting a chance to talk to you is such a perfect way to celebrate our 100th episode. Karen and Tiffany, we have spent some time looking at what we've accomplished so far, and now I want to turn to the future, but we've got to tee it up first. So I want to talk about the future of democracy and I want to start with some context through the lens of the insurrection, including our interviews with some of the people who survived it, including Representative Pramila Jayapal.
Pramila Jayapal:
I was trapped in the gallery on January 6th. 15 feet away from me the insurrectionists were pounding on the door to get in. For folks of color, to watch Confederate flags being raised and all the racist things that were being yelled. It's not trauma that's in the past, it is current and future.
Maxine Waters:
I met with the Capitol Hill police chief days before the invasion. I was assured that they were in control. The United States of America is not expected to be in this position. This could not happen. But it did.
Jill Wine-Banks:
It's not just about the violence on January 6th. Everything that led up to that, the big lie, the fake electors, it shows a really terrible threat to democracy, it barely survived and that's not good enough.
Farai Chideya:
We heard first from US representative Pramila Jayapal of Washington State followed by Representative Maxine Waters of California and former Watergate prosecutor, author, and MSNBC analyst, Jill Wine-Banks, all talking about the January 6th insurrection and what it means for the country. Tiffany, where do you think we're going from here as a law professor and someone who's watching this pageant of democracy unfold? It didn't start with January 6th, it won't end with the January 6th House Committee, but where are we going from here?
Tiffany Jeffers:
We're going either towards a third reconstruction or towards a civil war. That's where we're going. There's no in between with democracy. You can't have half democracy. So either we're going to fight and rebuild American democracy, or we're going to let it unravel with disinformation and not penalizing, not criminalizing the type of conduct Trump and his followers engaged in. And there's really just no in between, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. I mean, I have to agree. And I was just reading an interview in The Washington Post with Barbara F. Walter who's a political scientist who wrote a book called How Civil Wars Start and How to Stop Them. We're going to see if we can get her on the show. But one of the things that I really resonated with was, Karen, when she started talking about the prospect of civil war and making it very clear that this is not a civil war where you have armies marching against each other, but where as we just saw, people will try to drive their cars to the US capital.
Farai Chideya:
We just had another incident and ram into the structures of the federal government at the highest level. And there will probably be additional forms of domestic terrorism that pop up. And that type of civil war is something I do think is ramping up from everything I can see and from all my years of covering insurrection. Karen, where is your attention going at this moment?
Karen Attiah:
I really find it hard to imagine a scenario where the democracy or the federal setup us as we know it survives. It doesn't necessarily mean that we are all going to end up in some sort of massive, massive, horrible war where we're lobbing nuclear bombs at each other and bombing out Dallas. I think wars can also be wars on language and on imagination and on institutions. We're already seeing that with basically states. States like my State of Texas constantly trying to undermine federal rights and federal laws. As a member of the media, I pay a lot of attention to how the media frames what is going on or doesn't frame what is going on. And I look at our knee jerk reflex towards both sides acting like what is going on is a normal political situation, acting like the two parties are equally to blame for our situation.
Karen Attiah:
It's just not true. And I'm seeing how the mainstream media, how we really have, honestly, I think have failed to be able to understand and contextualize issues of race, issues of gender and abortion. If we are not able to cover those aspects of our society, well, we've already failed democracy. So I am not optimistic that the media is prepared for what's to come, to be honest.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. I mean, I worry too. I want to drill down on the specific role that black women and women of color are playing as guardians of democracy on the behalf of all. Here's Representative Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts.
Ayanna Pressley:
One of the images that seared in my brain was the black custodial staff cleaning up the mess left by this violent white supremacist mob so that we could continue our work of ratifying the electoral college. It was a literal representation of what black folk and other marginalized and oppressed folk have been doing for centuries. And that is cleaning up the mess of white supremacy.
Farai Chideya:
Karen, I often talk about the role that black women and all women of color play as guardians of democracy, cleaning up other people's messes and sometimes getting death threats like Shay Moss, who is the former Georgia election worker who testified to the house committee. What are we, as black women and women of color getting for all this unpaid civic labor?
Karen Attiah:
That's a good way to put it. And I've said that in a column once. It's like, no, white folk mess up and clean up on aisle 5, and then they hand them mop to us, and then we're supposed to be grateful to have this mop to clean up, right?
Farai Chideya:
Yeah.
Karen Attiah:
Back to joy and back to resistance and back... I struggle with this idea of putting us on the pedestal of being black superwomen to fix everything. I think often when we're fighting for ourselves, the changes that we advocate for trickle up normally. But you know what, let's be real. There has been more chatter, more writings, more groups. I mean, there are black women who are like, "You know what, I'm piecing out of America altogether. I don't have a responsibility to fix this mess. Obviously, there so many layers to that, plenty of people who can't do that, won't do that.
Karen Attiah:
I think this is why, again, back to communities and why it's so important, because I think there's so many people who are looking at the institutions crumbling. And I think about this a lot. I'm like, "We're all we got." So for me, I find this to be a period to really encourage people to get into your safe spaces in terms of community, in terms of mutual aid. We haven't even touched on climate change and how that affects women and communities of color. But I just think in some ways outside of politics and in some ways, what do I need to do for my community and particularly for other black women to be safe. I just reject sometimes. You know what? I just don't have to be the diversity janitor. You know what I mean?
Farai Chideya:
100%.
Karen Attiah:
The democracy janitor. But we do it because we need to survive. It's a matter of survival and life or death and the rights that we want to pass on to the next generation. So I get it. I just also give people permission to just take care of themselves if they need to. Survival is also a form of fighting back. We weren't expected to be here. We weren't expected to even be free at all. The institutions will not save us. We will save us, I think.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. If you're just joining us, we're celebrating our 100th episode with ace contributors, columnists for The Washington Post, Karen Attiah and associate professor at Georgetown University Law Center, Tiffany Jeffers. Understanding today's politics goes hand in hand with understanding economic affairs. Here's part of an interview we played on the show with the late LGBTQ organizer, lawyer and author, Urvashi Vaid.
Urvashi Vaid:
If you don't have childcare or you can't afford an affordable home, even if you have a job you're going to have a hard time making ends meet. And that's a reality for a lot of people. So why is it so difficult for us to imagine a society in which more of the benefits of our society are socialized while some of the risks are privatized? We have the exact opposite situation. We privatize the benefits and socialize the risk. You and I pay for failed banks. You and I pay the consequences of bad decisions on Wall Street. I think it should be the other way around. I think they should be responsible for their bad decisions and business should pay the consequences of its stupidity, as I do, if I make stupid decisions.
Farai Chideya:
I have to say as someone with an incredibly broad array of friendships and long-term business relationships with people from people living in consistent poverty to a few billionaires, I am seeing the hyper wealthy lineup citizenship in other countries, so that if things go sideways here, they can leave. And I'm also seeing some, even working class black and brown people make plans to exit, but it's a much different perspective if you can't secure citizenship with funds, et cetera. And so Tiffany, you've got a family and I'm sure you want your kids to live in freedom. How do you face what we're facing?
Tiffany Jeffers:
Farai, I go back and forth to be honest. Number one, I want to say that I second everything Karen said about this, and Farai, I hope that at some point you are able to do a show on black expats and where people are going and what people are doing, because there is a movement of people that are leaving this country and it's real, and we have to acknowledge why they're leaving. And then we should ask where they're going and what life is like there. There are some very tangible benefits for living and staying in this country. And for someone that exists like me with a chronic illness, I would have to learn the healthcare system of wherever I move to.
Tiffany Jeffers:
I have little kids I'd have to learn the education system. And so some of it is a little bit of the devil you know. And that mentality is hard to contend with. Should you stay and fight for the very little crumbs you get or should you dream for more and hope for more, and go make more somewhere else? So I actually have been thinking about that pretty intentionally in the last several months and maybe actually subconsciously over the last several years. But what I'll say about black women doing the labor and the work of upholding democracy and fighting for justice in this country, the one thing, if we take it back to joy at the beginning of the conversation, the one thing that gives me joy about this work is that I don't have to do it with relaxed hair in a black suit.
Tiffany Jeffers:
There is something that has shifted for me. When I first became a lawyer 15 years ago, I went into law school with the big Afro. I relaxed my hair because my career services office told me that I needed to have straight hair to get a job. And I believed them. I was paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for this education to go and change the world, but I was told that to change the world, I had to fit into this norm, this Western norm, that my body and my face and my hair doesn't fit into. And so using chemicals to alter that was something that I felt was necessary.
Tiffany Jeffers:
And in 2022, having the freedom to say, "No, I don't want to do that and I'm not going to do that, and I'm going to loudly not do that. I'm still going to fight for justice, and freedom, and Liberty, and I'm going to make whatever space I need to do it in the way that I look now, it helps me restore myself and restore some of that fight in me." And like Karen said, it also gives me power to rest.
Tiffany Jeffers:
There are things that I just say no to sometimes. And that's just part of my fight is saying, "No, because I need to rest. I need to rejuvenate. I need to recalibrate."
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, that is awesome. I'll just jump in here, Tiffany, to say that a lot of times, I think people don't understand. People are like, "Why do black people keep going on about their hair?" It's like I remember being told as like a 22, 23-year-old who had just gotten a promotion to work in the DC bureau of Newsweek by a woman who was supposed to be mentoring me, a non-black woman that I looked young and unprofessional with box braids. And so I took them out, straightened my hair for a while. But later I was on CNN as a political commentator with Kellyanne Fitzpatrick, i.e. Kellyanne Conway now, and I had natural hair and everyone loved it because it was in fashion.
Farai Chideya:
And the reality is my hair should not have to be about whether you think I'm in fashion or not in fashion. And people have to understand that there's a psychic toll to constantly being told that you're to this. I mean, and it doesn't always come from white people either. I remember having to tell a makeup artist, not to do a certain type of contouring on my nose that made it look more like an aquiline European nose. I'm like, "My nose is as wide as my nose is. You don't have to pretend it's not that wide."
Tiffany Jeffers:
Exactly. We look how we look for a reason. This is just who we are.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. It was a black makeup artist and I think she was a little surprised that I said that, but I'm like, "I'm not here to be black Barbie. I'm just here to do my job."
Tiffany Jeffers:
Imagine having to save the world and have having to change your physique, like your physical natural structure to do it.
Farai Chideya:
Exactly. I think I'm just going to end our conversation here because I love that we can have these conversations. It really makes me happy that we can go all the way from constitutional originalism to black hair.
Tiffany Jeffers:
Right.
Farai Chideya:
This is our space.
Tiffany Jeffers:
This is who we are.
Farai Chideya:
Mm-hmm. 100%. And Tiffany, thank you so much for joining us today for this 100th episode. Woo-hoo.
Tiffany Jeffers:
Woo-hoo. Cheers to you, Farai. Cheers to all of us. We are literally moving the needle and changing the world.
Farai Chideya:
Karen, thank you so much for joining us.
Karen Attiah:
Farai, thank you so much. And congratulations on 100 episodes.
Farai Chideya:
Congratulations to us.
Karen Attiah:
Yay.
Farai Chideya:
That was a look at our first 100 episodes, plus a peak at the future with Our Body Politic contributors, Karen Attiah, a columnist for The Washington Post and Georgetown University Law Center, associate professor, Tiffany Jeffers. And before we wrap, I want to go out of this celebratory episode on a moment of hope with a clip from US Secretary of the Interior, Deb Haaland. She was on Our Body Politic all the way back on the second episode of the show when she was a congressperson representing New Mexico's first district.
Deb Haaland:
Sometimes people ask me, do I have hope? Yes. I have hope. We have an obligation to our future generations to make sure that we are doing everything we can to survive, to thrive. And I can't give up. I don't have the luxury of just giving up so easily. I have an obligation to honor the legacy that my ancestors gave me.
Farai Chideya:
It's conversations like this that fuel me and our team here at OBP as we continue our journalism centering women of color. And thank you for your part in that journey.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm the executive producer and host, Farai Chideya. Nina Spensley is co-executive producer. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Emily J. Daly and Steve Lack are our producers. Traci Caldwell is our booker. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Also producer Teresa Carey contributed to this episode.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Lauren Schild and engineered by Mike Goehler and Adam Rooner.
Farai Chideya:
This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.