On this episode of Our Body Politic, guest host Mara S. Campo looks at the foundational role of Black Americans in country music, and the barriers to entry that still exist. First we hear Mara’s conversation with professor Francesca Royster, author of “Black Country Music: Listening for Revolutions.” Then Mara talks with country music singer Brittney Spencer who was one of Rolling Stone’s 25 artists to watch in 2023. We round out the show hearing grammy-nominated Mickey Guyton speak with Mara about paving the way for other Black women in country music.
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This is Our Body Politic. I'm Mara S. Campo, anchor and managing editor at Revolt Black News. Sitting in for Farai Chideya. Black people were foundational to country music's roots, but you'd never know it from looking at the charts. While there are more Black women on country music radio since 2020, Black women artists only saw 0.05% airplay over the next two years. But there's a new wave of contemporary country artists making history, both for the genre and for Black women, including popular singer K Michelle, who announced her latest album, I'm The Problem would be her last foray into R&B. She's switching to country music, and this last R&B album includes her first solo country single Tennessee. We'll be talking to some other country musicians later in the show. But first, we speak with Francesca Royster. She's a professor of English at DePaul University and author of the 2022 book Black Country Music: Listening for Revolutions. Francesca, thank you so much for joining me to set the table for this show.
Francesca Royster [00:02:10] Oh, thank you so much for having me, Mara. It's great to be here.
Mara S. Campo [00:02:14] You are a Black queer woman who describes yourself as being quite professorly. How did you develop this interest in country music? What's your personal connection to country music?
Francesca Royster [00:02:25] I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee, as a kid. My dad was a professor at Fisk University, and so we were there kind of surrounded in the country music culture. But, you know, there was also the sense that it was not culture for us, like for our family. But at the same time that that was happening, my dad was who's a poet and writer, was also a session musician. He plays percussion. And so he, you know, was part of that scene and had recorded on some albums with Jimmy Buffett and Diane Davidson and some other folks. So fast forward to the mid 20 teens and I was working on a memoir and I was interviewing my dad about ideas about home, and he started telling me about this part of our lives. And I didn't know a lot about how he felt about playing with these musicians and just his sense of respect, but also these tensions in terms of belonging and country music. So as we were talking, I really thought this is something that I hadn't read a lot about and I really wanted to know more. It felt kind of uncomfortable. It felt like territory that I knew some people would write about, but not a lot. At the same time that I was becoming aware of this and starting to explore Black country artists and traditional artists. My daughter had discovered Lil Nas X's Old Town Road and she was, you know, like five or six. And I saw how the strong appeal of this music and the way that she and her friends had no limits, like no sense that this is a genre that Black kids aren't supposed to listen to. They were so excited by, you know, all the guest choruses, Billy Ray Cyrus. Like just the way that all these different genres were coming together in that song. And to me, that really marked a moment of change or the possibility for change. And I found myself kind of reaching backwards and forwards, like looking at people who've been around for a while, like Charley Pride and Tina Turner and their forays into country music, but also thinking about emerging artists.
Mara S. Campo [00:04:39] Now, when it comes to the Black community and our relationship with country music, it's it's not just that it doesn't necessarily feel welcoming. It can feel unsafe.
Francesca Royster [00:04:50] Yes.
Mara S. Campo [00:04:50] Why is that?
Francesca Royster [00:04:52] So? Yeah. So that feeling of tension, I think is connected to the history of the ways that white supremacy has been connected to country music and sometimes used as a soundtrack. I think about like, Fiddlin’ John Carson, who was an early 20th century country innovator who also, you know, played at Klan rallies or, you know, the way is that even now, country music is a space for people to declare the importance of white pride.
Mara S. Campo [00:05:21] Now, in terms of the roots of country music, what were the contributions of Black artists to the roots of the entire genre?
Francesca Royster [00:05:29] Well, for sure if you go right to like one of the central sounds of country music to the banjo, that is an instrument whose roots are in African music. It's an instrument that was brought over.
Mara S. Campo [00:05:42] The banjo is an African instrument?.
Francesca Royster [00:05:45] Yes. The banjo is an African instrument. And, you know, the instrument has been, you know, adapted and changed over the years. But definitely for a long time in the 18th and 19th century, banjo music was perceived by people who were writing about it in the United States as Black American music. What's an important part of the step of where we get to country music as White has to do with Blackface, minstrelsy, the love and theft of Black folk traditions and caricatures of Black performers and Black bodies where Black folk music and Black dance and banjo traditions became places of parody and satire performed by white musicians. And really, the stories that were being told about this music was that it was authentically White Mountain music that was always connected to white immigrants and white Southern culture. But I think that that bridge of Blackface minstrelsy is the thing that sometimes gets gets avoided.
Mara S. Campo [00:06:47] Is that an accurate description of the roots of country music, that it's this kind of this mountain music that was created by, you know, the European immigrants to the country?
Francesca Royster [00:06:57] No, not at all. That is a myth that embraces the fact that country music is drawn from what we think of as Black folk music, the blues, Hawaiian music, Mexican culture, Mexican-American culture as well. There are a lot of different sources that have shaped what we hear and the emergence of kind of country music as a commercial genre.
Mara S. Campo [00:07:21] Certainly there was an attempt at erasure, or at least commercial ownership of other genres of music where Black artists had a big hand in creation and development, like R&B, like rock and roll, even with hip hop. Why did it seem to be so successful in the case of country music? Is it that the artists willingly left because of this culture, this underlying culture of violence that you mentioned? Or were they just successfully pushed out and completely erased by the industry?
Francesca Royster [00:07:50] Well, I think that some of it does have to do with the the hostile environment that has been a part of country music. But I think it's also the path of the way is that recording studios like Muscle Shoals, for example, have used Black musicians for the heart of their sound, while not necessarily giving them official credit so that white artists have been able to kind of use the sounds of Blackness in their creation of country music, but not necessarily refer to the other way where Black artists are able to kind of crossover into these markets. You know, if you look at some of the careers of early country music artists like the DeFord Bailey, for example, who performed in the 1920s and thirties in early versions of the Grand Ole Opry when it was a radio show and a stage show, you know, his artistry, his amazing harmonica playing. And, you know, his presence was a really important part of the show. But eventually he was also pushed out and kind of asked to adapt his sound to changing demands about country music. That was something that when Martell also experienced where there was just a very small space for Black creativity, in her case, this was in the 1960s, but her recording of Color Me Country was supported by her label for the span of one album, and she toured and appeared at the Grand Ole Opry 11 times or something. But eventually her record label decided not to support her, that it was too much work to support a Black artist.
Mara S. Campo [00:09:27] There's also someone unexpected that I learned about through your work. I did not realize that Tina Turner had a country album. Tell me about that.
Francesca Royster [00:09:37] Yes. Yes. I was so excited to find Tina Turner's album, Tina Turns The Country On which she made in 1974, and this was a solo album that isn't really talked about as Tina's solo debut. She was still, you know, connected to Ike and still a very well known musician in connection with the Ike and Tina Turner Revue. But I see it as Tina making a kind of sonic declaration of Independence through country music, which to me speaks to the ways that for a lot of Black artists, some Black fans, country is home country music and country identity is part of who they are. It's not just trying to be let in to a white genre. It's really part of our roots and our history as well.
Mara S. Campo [00:10:24] Over the last 20 years, Bipoc artists have accounted for about 3% of. Artists played on country music stations. But there is one artist who has broken through quite successfully, and that is Darius Rucker, and he is very, very unique in this space. What is the needle that he has had to thread?
Francesca Royster [00:10:42] Well, he is someone who is really interesting to me as someone who very intentionally broke into country music. You know, in the early 2000s he had done that in part through his success as a part of Hootie and the Blowfish, which itself was a kind of crossover sound and music. You know, I think that he's also had to struggle even building a country career as an already famous artist, successful musician. He had to really break into a country radio play. It took a while for him to be played. You know, social media has been not always welcoming of his posts, like even thinking about the murder of George Floyd when Darius Rucker decided to use his own social media space to comment on it and to lament it. You know, he got a lot of really hostile backlash. And so, you know, he's someone who has, in my view, been very careful to navigate some of those tensions.
Mara S. Campo [00:11:41] Francesca Royster, author of Black Country Music Listening for Revolutions. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Francesca Royster [00:11:47] Thank you so much, Mara.
Mara S. Campo [00:11:55] Three years ago, Brittney Spencer was at her home in Nashville when her life completely changed. She posted a 59 second video to the platform formerly known as Twitter, singing an acoustic cover of the song Crowded Table by the country quartet The Highwomen. Before she knew it, Britney was opening shows for Jason Isbell and making appearances at the CMA Awards. She was featured in Rolling Stone’s 25 Artists to Watch and is about to release her debut album, My Stupid Life. Brittany Spencer, singer and songwriter. Welcome to Our Body Politic. We are so excited to have you.
Brittney Spencer [00:12:31] I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. Wow, I haven't heard that clip in forever.
Mara S. Campo [00:12:37] What do you think when you hear that clip? What are the memories that come up for you?
Brittney Spencer [00:12:41] It takes me to about three years ago, you know, when it all happened. And guys and I felt really different during that time. It was during the pandemic when we were home. Weren't going anywhere. I lived in a studio apartment and my life has kind of been a little bit of a whirlwind since then. So like, I know it's cool. I hear that clip and I hear how I'm still the same, but how a lot of my life has changed since then.
Mara S. Campo [00:13:03] What was the reaction like?
Brittney Spencer [00:13:05] It was wild. I posted that video and then Amanda Shires, she reposted it and she called me a Highwoman and she invited me to come and sing with the Highwomen one day. And then Maren Morris, she saw and she did the same as well. And then a month later I was inside of Jason Isbell and Amanda Shires barn writing a song with them and Maren. But my introduction into this industry, it was a dream way to enter into this industry at this capacity was through really, really good people and I just don't take that for granted. And I I've heard so many horror stories from a lot of my artist friends meeting their heroes, but I got to meet three of mine that day. And it was it changed my life and I tried to hold on to that.
Mara S. Campo [00:13:47] Did that embrace surprise you at all, given the landscape of country music? You know, there are so few artists of color. There are so few that get radio play. The ones that have broken through have faced sometimes a lot of hostility from country audiences. But what you're describing is the exact opposite of that. Were you surprised at all by the way you were received?
Brittney Spencer [00:14:08] I was. And it's not a reflection of them. It's a reflection of the many years that I've looked at the landscape of country music since I was a kid. And I never thought anybody was like, mean or crazy like that, I guess. But I always thought there's a reason why nobody is here that looks like me, you know, That's what I think. Even as a kid, you see it, industry, you see an entire organization kind of looking like one thing and you decide that that's intentional. And so I guess I was shocked because I think I had a different version of what the fight to just be an artist and be able to express myself in such a space that is is really tethered to nostalgia in a way that I don't always relate to. And when I started to really get into this industry and get a look at the landscape and the culture of it, everything was selected for me, even just from the standpoint of being an artist. Like, my career started happening when everyone was locked inside their homes for years. You know, that's that's weird. You know, it's not just because of… I got to do a whole bunch of shows, which I've done. I mean, I've lived in Nashville for ten years, but when my moment started to happen, when I started to have a bit of a break, it just looked so much different than what I thought it would. And I've just… I've taken in so much of the joy and also the, I think, the heartache of that. But in the end, I'm just I feel really grateful for I am. And more than ever, I'm less apprehensive to be honest about my experiences.
Mara S. Campo [00:15:35] Why do you think that you were received this way? What do you think it was about the timing or about you as an individual that made this possible?
Brittney Spencer [00:15:45] Gosh, I think it's a combination of things. You know, it is pretty cumulative when I think about it. I think about Mickey Guyton around that time saying, I've been in Nashville for for ten years and I've never put out an album, but I've been signed to a major record deal all this time because no one thinks that this world is ready for a Black woman to sing country music. And when she started being honest and vocal about that, I started to see the industry kind of shifting a bit. And they were just like, Whoa, we're Black country singers. And so it felt like for a lot of people, we were just popping up out of the woodworks. And like, I've been here for ten years. I mean, this is a I've been posting covers online for ten years.
Mara S. Campo [00:16:24] I'm not new to this.
Brittney Spencer [00:16:25] Yeah. Like, it's like, you know, I am, but I'm also like, like there were a lot of people that did move to Nashville during that time when Black country artists were kind of under like a microscope. People kind of searching us out, you know? But I was one of the few that was like, actually here already. And I think it's a lot of artists support. There's so many people who have just been very kind but gravitated to me like there are a lot of creatives in Nashville who want new things, who are looking for I don't want to say necessarily diversity, but I think there is a sonic diversity happening right now in country music. You get in Black country artists from Baltimore City like me or from New Jersey or from Alabama, or military kids who aren't really from anywhere because they've lived everywhere. You get in a lot of that, and a lot of times that changes the sound. That's why you hear country trap and that's why you're hearing like country alternative. You know, you hear artists like me who grew up listening to Mariah and Miranda thing or you get a lot of people who have embraced a lot of things their whole life. And it comes out in our sound. And I think that that's really interesting and appealing in a lot of the creative community is really down with that. So I don't know. I just I think it's a lot of things. I think that when I personally think of my story, I think about the support from a lot of creatives. I think about Mickey, I think about the Highwomen, I think about Jason Isbell, I think about the incredible artists have taken me on the road. I've been on the road with Reba, touring with her. I've been on a road with Willie Nelson and I mean Dolly Parton introduced in the other ACM awards last year.
Mara S. Campo [00:17:57] What was that like? I mean, Dolly is a national treasure.
Brittney Spencer [00:17:59] I mean, it was it was wild. I mean, and we were in dress rehearsal, so was like she did it twice. So I've heard Dolly Parton say my name three times now. Like this point in my life.
Mara S. Campo [00:18:07] You can die happy.
Brittney Spencer [00:18:08] Yeah. Honestly, Like, you know, I've had a good run. Thank you guys so very much.
Mara S. Campo [00:18:14] How have you been received by audiences?
Brittney Spencer [00:18:17] Gosh, I've had such an incredible time getting to meet people in the audience, because for me, it's been really diverse. You know, I remember last summer I was on the road opening for Brandi Carlile and then Kingfish, then Nathaniel Rateliff. And then I went over to Baltimore, opened up for Megan Thee Stallion and Lauryn Hill. And I was it's just it's been so widespread and getting to see the songs that all different kinds of crowds gravitate to when I sing them. It's been interesting, it's been fun and people have been kind and receptive. And I think I think it's so cool. People just walk up to you and they're like, that song you sang Sober and Skinny, wow, I just I, you know, I dated someone who had a drug and alcohol abuse problem and and it took a toll on me as well. And I've never heard my story articulated like this. And I'm just I don't know. It's just is something beautiful about people feeling like they can open up to you about their life, even if it's just for 2 minutes in the you know, while I'm at the merch stand or something, just hearing their stories. It makes me feel like I should continue to write stories.
Mara S. Campo [00:19:22] Now, you mentioned Sober and Skinny, which is such a beautiful song and also so deeply layered. What is the story behind that?
Brittney Spencer - Girl.
Mara S. Campo - Every great story starts with girl.
Brittney Spencer [00:19:37] You know, I feel like I've tried to explain this song, like tell the story behind it ever since it came out back in 2021. And I don't know that I've ever done a really good job at it. It's like the song starts in the middle of just an honest conversation, you know, with two people who love each other and they have issues with themselves, but they find ways to projected onto the others. And it's like, Let me pick you apart. You know, let me focus on your thing. The song isn't necessarily autobiographical, but I definitely pull from pieces of my story to kind of place it with a little bit of myself in. I live in Nashville, where we celebrate alcohol all the time. Like, I can't I can't even listen to the radio without hearing some my talking about living it up and drinking it up. And I'm like, I see more people, like struggling with drugs and alcohol than I do seeing them enjoy it all the time. And so as a person who has struggled with my weight all of my life and just the perception that people have of a fat person, immediately, you see if that person and you just make all of these generalizations about them, you decide that they might be this kind of person, or you judge the way they look, just the way they walk. You judge what you think. They should wear the things that people do when they see a body and how they decide to treat that person. I've just experienced that my whole life. And I mean, they're not exactly the same at all. I wouldn't dare say that. It's just I think as people if we found the commonalities in all of these things, I think we would judge people a lot less.
Mara S. Campo [00:21:06] Now, what was the reaction from your family and friends as you evolved into a country singer?
Brittney Spencer [00:21:12] Oh, gosh, my dad couldn't believe it. He didn't even think I was actually going to do it. He was shocked. I remember there was this one time I told my dad in October, I said, Hey, I just booked the flight. I'm flying to Nashville in January. I'm going to go look at an apartment and try to set up some job interviews so I could have a job when I get there. And then January came. He called me. It was like, Hey, you didn't come home last night. I was like, Yeah, So I'm in Nashville. He's like, Oh, you're actually like, really doing this? I was like, Yeah, I'm doing that. Just my at park, my rental car on up on Broadway. Back then, you could park on Broadway and actually, like, literally get out your car, walk around the corner, go to a bar. Now, Broadway is insane. You can't do any of that. You better Uber, and hopefully you can get out. But back then, in 2013, when I moved there, you could. And it was just so funny to hear my dad on the call being like, You're actually doing this. I'm like, Yeah, I'm actually doing it. And my mom, she always knew that I would like she got me my class ring in high school. They had like a a cowboy hat on one side and cowboy boots and other. My mom brought me my first cowboy boots as a teenager. She just… she understood and she got it. Like, I think she probably had more faith in me than I did. I didn't know if this would happen, but but my mom did. And my dad, he's he's gotten on board. They love it. I invite them to shows. I did a show in Baltimore downtown. My dad, he was in the front row just having a great time. He's like he's like, I was looking around. I just I couldn't believe how many people were singing along. And I was like, Yeah, me either. We both were shocked.
Mara S. Campo [00:22:49] Do you feel that you have to suppress any part of yourself as a Black woman to be successful in this space?
Brittney Spencer [00:22:56] I don't know that I have to suppress parts of myself. I think part of maybe the appeal with me is that I'm painfully myself. Most of the time. If I'm frustrated, if I'm not like is something Mickey tells me that I can't really have my facial expressions and I actually think is very true, thanks to the internet for showing me videos.
Mara S. Campo [00:23:17] But. But would you feel comfortable, for example, speaking on a Black Lives Matter or a police killing?
Brittney Spencer [00:23:24] That's how my career started. My career started because Mickey Guyton was saying, Why doesn't country have Black artists besides the two or three that you allow and at a time once every few decades? And that was a story that at the time I was also echoing like I was posting about it, cause this was around the time of George Floyd, Amad Arbery, Breonna Taylor. Like, this was around that time. And country music started being in the national news, you know, over this particular subject. And so I talked about it all the time. That's what people wanted to talk to me about most. The very first song that I put out as a solo artist in 2020 was a song called Compassion. I talk about protesting, I talk about world hunger, I talk about war, I talk about the way we judge people. Like I don't mind talking about these things. And for me, that's the beauty of country music, is that you can hear a song about anything. You know, I feel like there's a few genres where you just don't know exactly what the song might be about because this genre, this space, allows for people to just tell any story, you know? And I think that's the beauty for me of country music. And so it's I'm never afraid because of how people might perceive me for talking about being Black. My my very existence will tell you that, you know, I step on that stage and you learn a lot about me in about 5 seconds. And so I guess for me, the only thing for me that I actually consider is my safety, especially when I have to be out in the open. But now I'll say you need to stop because it's true.
Mara S. Campo [00:24:57] When you talk about safety, you know, for a lot of Black people when it comes to the hesitancy to even attend, say, a country music festival or go to a bar, it's not just that it doesn't feel culturally welcoming. Those spaces can feel unsafe. So, for example, as you noted, there might be the Confederate flag flying freely, which for a Black person, you know, is often a sign that you are not safe here. And it sounds like you have felt that at times as well.
Brittney Spencer [00:25:25] Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I remember the first time that I went down to Broadway, I went to a bar and someone this guy put out his foot and tried to make me slip in a puddle of water, but I didn't see it happen. I just knew that I, like, almost slipped and I thought it was just my own doing. And this someone came and grabbed me and said, Hey, be careful. That table. A guy just put out his foot. He just tried to tribune and it's like it could be just that he was drunk. It could be. That is Broadway. It could be that he's a douche. But also, I look around and there's nobody else here that looks like me. And I'm like, Why was I Target? Was it just him being stupid? That's the hard part about all of this. That is the mental game of it all. It's like it could be because of this, it could be because of that. And that's what it's like constantly being one of the only, if not a lot of times the only Black person in the space. You just you, you don't always know the reason. But I've experienced stuff like that a lot of times.
Mara S. Campo [00:26:19] Now you're getting ready to release your debut album, My Stupid Life. What should we expect from the album and why the title My Stupid Life.
Brittney Spencer [00:26:27] My Stupid Life. I just really like the word stupid. Like, seriously, you know, I was. I was just telling my friends the other day, I was like, you know, I wrote this song, My Stupid Life, like two years ago. And now stupid is just like a buzz word, like my stupid little mental health. Like I see memes all the time, my stupid little this. And I'm like, Yes, I'm so excited. But stupid is. I don't know. It's just it's it's… I don't know it. It's like me trying to not take life so seriously, trying to not take myself so, so seriously. And also, I grew up in the nineties and early 2000s and you remember shows like My So-Called Life. I lived for MTV, you know, I lived for that stuff. I live for the carefree mass of people just being okay to be a mess. And the album itself is a country album, but you hear where I like country and rock, you hear where I like country and R&B. You hear where I grew up in church. You hear where songwriting is most important to me. And sonically, I wanted to take people through a journey. I didn't want one song to sound like the other, and I wanna I hope people listen to my stupid little album and enjoy themselves and ponder and think and feel, and I just wanted something for everybody.
Mara S. Campo [00:27:42] Brittney Spencer, thank you for being here. Your new album, My Stupid Life, is coming out in January and this was such a pleasure to speak with you. I know we'll be hearing a lot more from you.
Brittney Spencer [00:27:54] You have made my day. Thank you so much.
BREAK
Mara S. Campo [00:28:10] Welcome back to Our Body Politic. I'm Mara S. Campo sitting in for Farai Chideya. In the midst of nationwide calls for racial reckoning in 2020, after the death of George Floyd, country music singer Mickey Guyton did something that's almost never done. She used country music, a virtually all white space to call out racial injustice. Releasing the song Black Like Me, Mickey Guyton is the first Black female solo artist to earn a Grammy nomination in any country music category for the song Black Like Me in 2020. And she was the first Black woman to ever perform solo at the Academy of Country Music Awards that same year. Mickey Guyton, welcome. Thank you for being here.
Mickey Guyton [00:28:53] Ohh! Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you today.
Mara S. Campo [00:28:57] You're a powerful singer. You could easily have done R&B. There are a million directions you could have gone in. But you chose country, a space where you did not see a lot of women who look like you. Why country music?
Mickey Guyton [00:29:10] I don't know. I think it just kind of found me maybe just from where I grew up and just the space and time that I was at, I knew I wanted to become a singer after I heard LeAnn Rimes sing the national anthem at a Texas Rangers baseball game, which is crazy because I just sing at a Texas Rangers, Arizona Diamondbacks World Series game, and it's just such a full circle moment. But I heard her voice and I was just like, Wow, I want to do that. Or when everybody was listening to Spice Girls and 702, which I was listening to too, I was also listening to Shania Twain. And I don't know, just something about the music just spoke to me.
Mara S. Campo [00:29:47] How were you received when you first started out? Not only from people in the industry, but also from friends and family? I mean, it's not too often you hear Black women say, I'm going to be a country singer.
Mickey Guyton [00:29:58] Well, growing up in Waco, Texas, people don't really understand like Black people are country. Like, you go out to the south. Even talking to the singer Monica, she is a southern belle. My family is really, really country. My husband is a city boy. And any time he's come home for a funeral or for a holiday occasion, whatever it is, he's just shocked to see that Black people like my family exist. Like, people don't understand that that's my life. And it's just so crazy that people claim the genre of music that doesn't necessarily just belong to them. Sorry, I get passionate about it.
Mara S. Campo [00:30:36] No, no, no. This passion is a big part of the conversation that we want to have because what you're saying is absolutely right. Right. Black people have as much of a claim to Southern culture and southern music and country music as anyone else. But when you look at the culture of country music, we're not really there in large numbers as fans or as performers. Why do you think that is?
Mickey Guyton [00:31:03] You know, I think this starts way before our time. For some reason, the music industry has felt the need to put us all in these boxes to make sense of that. So, you know, Black people are soul or blues gospel, but country music came from that. For some reason… Well, we know the reason. We really know the reason. Like, I'm trying to, like, dance around the reason, but we all know the reason,
Mara S. Campo - which is?
Mickey Guyton - Black people don't belong here.
Mara S. Campo [00:31:35] Is that the message that you have received through the years?
Mickey Guyton [00:31:39] Honestly, when I first started, I was really, really scared when I got the strength and the courage. Like, I'm going to do this. You know, I had people here. I was living in L.A. at the time, so I had people that were really, really supportive of me here. But I had, you know, people also like, are you sure this is what you want to do? Are you ready to subject yourself to that? And my answer to that question was, I think I'm good because of how I grew up. When my family lived in Waco, Texas, we lived in Crawford, Texas. That's where George Bush's ranch was. The public school that we were supposed to go to when we were living out there, one of my mom's dearest friends, who's a white woman, cautioned her about going to this public school because they're selling point was that there weren't any Black kids that went there. So my mom put me in a private school, a Christian private school, and I went to an all Black church. So I know what it feels like to be the only one in a room and how scary that is and how intimidating that is. Like I've lived that my whole life. So I thought, okay, if I can do this as a little kid, I can walk in here as an adult and it's no thing. And I did it. And the city of Nashville, like, let me get this straight. The city of Nashville, there are some loving, magical people in this genre that have gone to bat for me that have supported me that have said my name and rooms that have given me gigs to put money in my pockets that I would have never had without them. But there was also some pushback.
Mara S. Campo [00:33:19] What did that pushback look like?
Mickey Guyton [00:33:21] That pushback look like? Whenever I would turn in a song to my label, to my management, and it was so overly scrutinized when I was first coming out with country music, there was this huge wave of bro country and that was like trap beats and like hip hop cadences and R&B melodies and everybody was doing this and bro country thing. And I grew up listening to the music that they were trying to emulate. That was out probably back in the nineties. Country music is like about 20 years behind the time now. And so I was like, Well, I can do that. So I would turn in that and they were like, Well, you have to sound really country, Mickey, because if you go out there, they're going to accuse you of not being authentic. And I'm like, Well, what do you mean? Like, what does that even mean? If people saw where I grew up and where I lived, there is no doubt in your mind that I'm country. Like middle America is my middle name. Like, that's what I grew up on and lived in. And it was just such a weird thing to hear.
Mara S. Campo [00:34:30] And when you talk about being the only, you know, in certain spaces, I think a lot of Black people have had that experience of kind of being the only at certain points in their life or most of their life. But with country music, it's a little bit unique because it's not only isolating for a lot of Black people, those spaces feel unsafe. It feels like the kind of place where you might expect to see a Confederate flag, where you might have to worry about your physical safety. How many times have you performed with a Confederate flag in the room?
Mickey Guyton [00:34:57] I've definitely seen it once, and that's when I first came out and I was on a major tour with a major country artists. And this guy had that Confederate flag out and he just threw it out there for everybody to see. And it was just like, there's a New York of all places. And now after everything that's gone on and after all the music that I've released, like I do find myself just scared. Any time I walk in a room
Mara S. Campo - Why?
Mickey Guyton - It just feels like a lot of people that are racist feel emboldened. You know, I mean, I live in a like, I felt comfortable moving into this neighborhood that I live in, in Nashville because I saw Black Lives Matter signs. I saw the Queer Community flag. I saw the flags. So I was like, okay, this is safe. I'm safe here. And recently it was vandalized. Like somebody wrote spray painted the N-word on someone's house. They stole someone's flag. And so if this is happening in my neighborhood where I thought I felt safe, I don't feel safe anywhere.
Mara S. Campo [00:36:06] Well, in 2020, you released Black Like Me. And I want to read a line from that song: “If you think we live in the land of the free, you should try to be Black like me.” Putting that song out was a huge risk for a Black woman in country music and certainly took a tremendous amount of courage. Why was it so important for you to release that song?
Mickey Guyton [00:36:28] I wrote that song as therapy for me. I had been in this town in Nashville for so long trying to pursue music, and I was feeling the pushback. I felt, you know, when I lived in Los Angeles, like I didn't feel the racism that I felt and the heaviness that I felt in the South, the segregation. And I'm from the South. Like, it's crazy how when you are in it, you just deal with it and it's just your normal. But I experience where it wasn't my normal. So to come back here, like, I really, really, really felt it. And so I wrote this song. I took this chance on the song because I read a book in Black history in college, because, like, that's where I really learned Black history was in college, not in high school, but in college. And I remember like there was a book they had us read called Black Like Me, where this white man named John Howard Griffin, who threw radiation dark in his skin to look like a Black man in the 1960s, to see what it was like to live in the South. And that was someone really stepping into a Black person's shoes. And the quotes in that book, like, it's just so he got it. He really did understand what so many people have been trying to tell and been telling since he experienced it. And so I wrote a that the song based off of that, in my experience in country music, I didn't think anybody was going to ever hear it. I hadn't planned for anybody to hear it. It was just my own song for me. And when I turned it into my own, my publishers, like I didn't get answers for like 48 hours, not because they didn't care, but I just think like it was triggering and they didn't know what to say. You know, a song like that, it can go. Either way, it can make people really, really mad or people really sad, or it can make people be like, Yes, someone got it. And so I never plan to release the song until like the George Floyd murder happened. And I mean, and I was also inspired by, like, Philando Castile. Like, there was all these murders happening that I was seeing that were triggering for me. Like, I didn't have a son at the time, But how do you not feel that pain of seeing someone that looks like you being murdered for just existing? And so when the song got the chance to be released because I just posted it on my Instagram of like 30,000 followers at the time. Just as a way of like, if there's anybody Black following me, like, I get it. I know you, I see you. And then some executives at Spotify heard it and they were like, We want to release this. And so they put it out. And that was a scary time. And I got a lot of mixed reactions.
Mara S. Campo [00:39:10] What were the reactions? What was the range?
Mickey Guyton [00:39:12] Some people were like, Thank you for this song, but man, I got some like angry posts from people, even like from white women claiming they have a Black son. And I'm like, Well, have you talked to your son then?
Mara S. Campo [00:39:26] And what was the anger based on that you would dare speak out?
Mickey Guyton [00:39:29] Mmm hmm. That I would dare to say some like my own experience, you know, like I'm not telling you who to vote for. I'm not telling you what god to believe in. I'm not telling you something as simple as walk a mile in my shoes and see how it feels.
Mara S. Campo [00:39:47] But it does seem like in the industry that you're in, it actually was received quite well overall.
Mickey Guyton [00:39:54] Oh, yes.
Mara S. Campo [00:39:54] Was that a shock to you?
Mickey Guyton [00:39:57] Yes.
Mara S. Campo [00:39:58] When they had been telling you, you have to sound more authentically country and they had been trying to whitewash you and hear you do the Blackest thing you could do, which is speak out on behalf of Black lives.
Mickey Guyton [00:40:10] It was the… Honestly, there is so many emotions that went on at that point in time in my life because it came at a time and that success came and it's with a price. There had been a pandemic that had to happen and we had to watch a man crying for his mother, for people to hear that, like, how do you how is it okay? Like, it wasn't like, yes, finally. It was actually a really, really, really painful time of my life that I'm still coping and getting and trying to find some peace of mind because it has haunted me, to be honest.
Mara S. Campo [00:40:47] Haunted you how? What do you mean?
Mickey Guyton [00:40:50] And we were still in the same space. You know, there are more artists, especially in country music, getting opportunities, but we're still in the same place. Like it's, you know, you felt like people really wanting that change and like, you know, there was some Black executives in Nashville that we talked about this and we allowed ourselves to feel hope. We're like, This feels different. This feels different. Fast forward now, you can just feel people tired of talking about it. And I know I feel it. You must feel it, too.
Mara S. Campo [00:41:22] I think Black women are more exhausted than anyone, frankly. I have wondered the toll that the stress of fighting for my humanity has taken on my life, because stress is what kills people, right? Heart disease and strokes and yeah, we're we're exhausted.
Mickey Guyton [00:41:34] I'm actually physically exhausted.
Mara S. Campo [00:41:37] But you continue to be outspoken.
Mickey Guyton [00:41:40] I've slowed up a little bit, to be honest. I have. Not because I don't feel, but for a moment I need some solace and some peace within my heart. Because I'm honestly having a hard time.
Mara S. Campo [00:41:55] So how do you protect your peace now?
Mickey Guyton [00:41:58] You know, I have a social media person that posts and does everything for me, but I'm not on there like I do have my fenster and I feel a sense of like, I'm healing right now and this is what I have to do to heal. I will be back out there and ready to fight. But right now I need a minute.
Mara S. Campo [00:42:15] In the country music space. Have you felt like you were fighting alone? Did you have a lot of allies?
Mickey Guyton [00:42:21] I do have a lot of allies, but I've watched them sacrifice their careers being an ally. And that's been really, really, really hard to watch as well. That's something that's really hard to see.
Mara S. Campo [00:42:32] And how do you feel about other Black artists? You know, Darius Rucker is one of the biggest stars in the world. He did speak out in 2020 by the first time he's spoken out on issues of race and racism. But that was he said what he had to say and he hasn't said much since. Do you wish that others who are on the front lines, other performers, were a little more vocal in the way that you are?
Mickey Guyton [00:42:51] Of course, But it's also not. We have all these wishes and hopes and dreams of things that aren't going to happen. They can't be upset with them for it because look at what it's doing to me mentally. I'm exhausted. Like, it's not everybody's cross to bear. You wish people would step up and bear that cross, but I'm not upset with them for not doing so.
Mara S. Campo [00:43:12] How does this show up in your music now? And I have to imagine that your writing is different. What we'll hear from you in the coming months, days, years. We'll sound different.
Mickey Guyton [00:43:22] It's very different. It's I'm very focused on mental health and the health of my relationship. Like that was what I was actually writing about before. It took a hard left after everything that was happening. Like I was just writing songs that meant something to me that made me feel something and made me feel good. And then when all of this stuff started happening with the world shutting down and the protests and everything, I live in downtown Los Angeles, so I was watching it out my window, was pregnant and watching protests and hearing sound bombs and seeing all the stuff outside my window. But now it's about me. And that's a again, that's a lot of unpacking that I'm still doing, to be honest.
Mara S. Campo [00:44:07] When it comes to Black people and country music. And let's start with the fans, more so than the performers. What do you think Black audiences are missing by not being more engaged with country music?
Mickey Guyton [00:44:20] Well, first of all, I'm starting to see a lot of audiences finding that, like I, I used to do this post for a country, music also looks like this. I'm going on TikTok and I'm seeing other influencers doing that and finding these Black artists that are singing country music. And I don't think it's necessarily that they're missing it just yet. They're finding out and and people are starting to feel comfortable with like, okay, I do want to sing rock music or I do want to sing country music. And they're like, Well, why not? And they're starting to do that. So it's just I feel like it's eventually going to catch up and it just takes time. I guess what I think they're missing is an opportunity for them to sing other songs that they love besides being put in one particular box.
Mara S. Campo [00:45:11] Do you think the industry wants more representation? Those who are deciding on on radio play and award nominations and performers at award shows and headliners for shows? Do you think the industry wants more representation in country music, or do they like things the way they are?
Mickey Guyton [00:45:29] I think they like things the way they are. I don't think they're thinking about it. I think this is a money driven industry and whenever they wherever the checks are, they will follow.
Mara S. Campo [00:45:37] And what about the audiences? Have you seen any change in how you were received when you step on stage? Is that changing at all?
Mickey Guyton [00:45:43] I think so. You know, I'm I've gotten to do some really great shows, and I think the audiences just want great music. I think the audiences love to see diverse artists. You know, I got to open it for Shania Twain. And when I looked at in the audience, there was everything they loved. I had Brittney Spencer, who's a Black country artist. She sang with me up on stage, and when we got back to the hotel, we couldn't sit down and have a meal because everybody wanted pictures with us. They didn't care what color we were. They just loved what we did. And that that's very telling and exciting.
Mara S. Campo [00:46:20] Would that have been the case 10 years ago?
Mickey Guyton [00:46:22] I think so. I think it would have been the case ten years ago. I don't think that the industry gives the fans enough credit to like something other than just one thing. I think they just like good music. And I think sometimes you need to trust the audience and give them a chance to to find it and to hear it and to really hear it. Not just like put it on a night rotation when I was in bed. They could really give people a chance and listen to their songs no matter what color they are.
Mara S. Campo [00:46:52] So. So who are you a fan of? What's your what's on your country music playlist?
Mickey Guyton [00:46:55] Oh, man, I love Brittney Spencer. I think that girl is great. Reyna Roberts. There's a girl named Tanner Adell. She's like a little Beyoncé looking woman…country music. Warren Treaty, they are another Black duo signed to a major record label. They are soul, they have a song out with Zach Bryan and the lead singer or one of the singers, Tanya Trotter. She was the girl that's sang His Eyes on the Sparrow with Lauryn Hill in Sister Act two.
Mara S. Campo [00:47:29] Oh, wow.
Mickey Guyton [00:47:30] Yes. You guys have got to listen to them. They are the next coming. They're going to save us all. Those two. They're like everything. Everything.
Mara S. Campo [00:47:41] So what do you think country music is going to look like ten years from now?
Mickey Guyton [00:47:45] I really do believe that now that the industry has caught wind, that there is a financial gain in diverse artists. I see it now in Nashville when I'm out there, that there is everything coming to Nashville to pursue country music and it's eventually going to hit and is eventually going to be mainstream. And my whole theory, I know it is correct, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is real and it is correct that it is not enough for just one country artist to make it every 25 years, one Black country artist to make it every 20 to 50 years. That's not change.
Mara S. Campo [00:48:28] If you could go back to 2020, would you do anything differently?
Mickey Guyton [00:48:32] Yeah, I would do a little something differently. I probably would have just changed my team, but I would have been exactly where I am. Now back when I first signed my deal, absolutely I would have done something differently. I wouldn't have listened to my team. I would have done exactly what made me happy and know that that was enough.
Mara S. Campo [00:48:50] We interviewed Brittney Spencer and she had some thoughts about you, some reflections on you and what you represent. So I want to want to play those now and get your thoughts on the other side.
Mickey Guyton [00:49:00] Okay.
Brittney Spencer [00:49:00] My career started because Mickey Guyton was saying, why doesn't country have Black artists besides the two or three that you allow in at a time once every few decades?
Mara S. Campo [00:49:12] What do you make of the idea that there are people who are pursuing this dream because of you?
Mickey Guyton [00:49:17] You know, I... I really appreciate everything saying something, but honestly, she doesn't have to say a word. I didn't do it to get any praise for it. I really just asked a simple question. I pursued country music because of Rissi Palmer, and if it weren't for Rissi Palmer, I wouldn't be here. And if I didn't have a pass in this genre, what hope was there for anybody else? And I literally just asked that question and was hoping that somebody would hear it and really want to do better. And they have done better. There's like a few country artists, Black country artists that are signed a major record labels now. And that is a win for me.
Mara S. Campo [00:50:00] Well, you're definitely changing the landscape.
Mickey Guyton [00:50:02] Thank you. I hope so.
Mara S. Campo [00:50:04] Mickey Guyton, it has been such a pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you for joining us.
Mickey Guyton [00:50:08] Thank you so much for having me. I really, really enjoyed our conversation.
Mara S. Campo [00:50:16] Want to hear more. You can catch the extended version of that conversation on our podcast. Just search Our Body Politic wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms and Rococo Punch. I’m today’s host, Mara S. Campo. Farai Chideya, Nina Spensley and Shanta Covington are executive producers.
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