This week on Our Body Politic, creator and host Farai Chideya interviews Anita Kumar, longtime reporter and first-ever senior editor of Standards & Ethics at POLITICO, on the 2022 midterm elections landscape. Farai and Kumar delve into how issues like political violence and extremism, abortion rights, and even media coverage are playing for the upcoming elections. Then, Farai interviews Carmen Rita Wong, writer, journalist, finance expert and author of the new memoir “Why Didn’t You Tell Me?” Wong candidly shares how discovering a series of family secrets surrounding her heritage led her to re-examine her race and culture, while also forging a path for discovering and living as her most authentic self.
Farai Chideya:
Hi folks. We are so glad you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We'd also love you to join in financially supporting the show, if you're able. You can find out more at ourbodypolitic.com/donate. We're here for you, with you, and because of you. Thank you. This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Labor Day has traditionally been the start of election season in American politics for decades, though people start jostling for power months earlier. As we head towards the November midterms, we're taking a look at what's resonating with voters, where Democrats and Republicans stand with the electorate, and what the outlook is for control of the House and Senate. Joining me today is Anita Kumar, POLITICO’s first ever Senior Editor of Standards and Ethics. Her focus is on political campaigns and election cycles and how both impact local, state, and federal government in the U.S. Kumar reported on the White House for POLITICO for nine years, across Presidents Joe Biden, Donald Trump, and Barack Obama. Hi Anita.
Anita Kumar:
Hi, great to be back with you.
Farai Chideya:
This is the time of year where a lot of voters start plugging into politics even if they haven't beforehand. What stands out to you about the midterm season?
Anita Kumar:
Well, I think that we are seeing a change, a shift a little bit, just in these last few days and weeks. It was sort of assumed that Republicans would be able to win back Congress, and I think now, we're not so sure about that. Conventional wisdom shows that they will probably win the House, but the Senate seems like a toss up. Some of my colleagues this week that are analyzing the races, are talking about how it's possible that maybe Democrats will hold on. It's just really not sure. I think we're going to see a huge, huge fight, two months of fights here across the country as they try to figure out who can control Congress or if there's a split.
Farai Chideya:
Anita, every election cycle has winners and losers, but they also have different issues that pop to the fore, and access to abortion is definitely one of those issues that is coming up in two party politics. Another one, we're going to circle back to abortion, but another issue that's coming to the fore is extremism, so in his speech last week in Philadelphia, President Biden called out political violence and extremism.
President Biden:
But there's no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven, and intimidated by Donald Trump on the MAGA Republicans, and that is a threat to this country.
Farai Chideya:
President Biden also said this.
President Biden:
They promote authoritarian leaders and they fan the flames of political violence that are a threat to our personal rights, to the pursuit of justice, to the rule of law, to the very soul of this country.
Farai Chideya:
Given what President Biden said in this big speech, and there's been some evidence that voters are now, actually interested in threats to democracy as things that are just as important as the economy to them. How will his stance play in the midterms?
Anita Kumar:
I think we saw President Biden give one of his most aggressive speeches to date as president. This is something he talked about a lot during the campaign, his campaign in 2020, but when he came into office, he really didn't talk about this as much. He didn't really even want to mention Donald Trump's name really, with the White House officials and him. We didn't hear that, but I think he's ramped it up because of a couple reasons. One, exactly what you mentioned, which is that people are starting to really think about this. We've seen a lot of these January 6th trials, we've seen arrests, we've seen what's going on with President Trump and the FBI and the various investigations, and I think President Biden realizes that people are talking about this and that this is something that Democrats should use as an election issue. It's about the rule of law, it's about democracy, and they feel like this could be a real way to get Democrats excited going out to the polls in November. I think we're going to see him talk about these issues for the next couple months.
Farai Chideya:
What are we seeing from the GOP side about how they are dealing with President Biden's speech and also, with the ongoing set of indictments and legal inquiries into the former president and two advisors, including Steve Bannon.
Anita Kumar:
You have a segment that is still defending Donald Trump who are saying that this is a partisan investigation. It's something that President Trump said when he was in office. It's something he's been saying out of office, so we're hearing that. We do have a segment of the Republican Party that just doesn't want to talk about these things, and they're going back to some of these other issues, inflation and the costs that Americans are facing around the country when they're in the grocery store or at the gas pump. They want to talk about those issues. They want to talk about immigration, what's happening on the southern border. We're seeing a little bit of both of those things, and it really depends on what segment of the Republican Party you're talking about.
Farai Chideya:
Just in general, over the past four presidential terms, the party and control of the White House, law seats in Congress, it's seen as this kind of benchmark of this is what happens. The president's party loses votes in the midterms and what's shaping up for this year with all the uncertainties.
Anita Kumar:
You're exactly right. That's what we've come to expect and we generally see. This is a little bit closer maybe than we've seen in some years. Of course, it's still pretty early. We've got the whole election cycle to go through, so anything can happen, but right now, the Republicans are expected to take back the House. There was talk at one point that they might win 60 seats. I think that no one is talking about that right now. They're talking about maybe 20 seats. They need about five seats. It's very close right now in the House.
Anita Kumar:
The Senate's been really interesting. It's a toss of at this moment. It really just depends on a handful of key states, and we don't really know how those are going to go. What we're seeing is that Democrats who had been a little bit down and out about their prospects are feeling a little bit better for a variety of reasons in the Senate. One of them is, that some of the costs, the prices are going down, inflation's getting, the economy seems to be getting a little better. President Biden has helped Democrats in Congress pass some bills, so he's gotten some things done, and Republicans are also facing some weak candidates that they perhaps, didn't expect in particular states that they're feeling like they're not doing as well. I wouldn't say that the Democrats are feeling good, but they are feeling a little bit better than they were probably a few months ago.
Farai Chideya:
They're feeling less bad.
Anita Kumar:
That's exactly right.
Farai Chideya:
Well, here's an interesting case. Stacey Abrams running again for governor of Georgia. She spoke a bit on CNN recently about abortion rights and how important that is to politics today.
Stacey Abrams:
This is healthcare. This is about a woman's right to control her body. This is about a woman's right to experience and determine her future. That for me, as a matter of faith, means that I don't impose those value systems on others, but more importantly, I protect her rights. I protect her humanity.
Farai Chideya:
Let's talk first about abortion, then about Stacey Abrams. What has abortion done, the Dobbs ruling, which essentially overturned Roe v. Wade. What has that done to the map?
Anita Kumar:
It's been interesting to see how this plays out across the country. What you're seeing is a lot of Republican led states, Republican legislatures, or Republican governors trying to move to restrict abortion and now having essentially the permission to do so. They get to decide for themselves, and how you've seen politically, you've seen Democrats reacting, getting very upset about that. They don't want that, and they're using that politically to say, "Look, if you want to change this, if you want to go back to the way things were, if you want to elect people that are going to expand access to abortion instead of restrict it, you need to elect Democrats." Even, obviously, though this was not the ruling that Democrats wanted, they are trying to use it to their advantage politically to say, "Get excited, get enthusiastic, come out to the polls and vote for these like-minded people." We've seen that a little bit around the country that Democrats feel like this could be working and they feel like this is going to be one of their major issues in November.
Farai Chideya:
Let's also turn to the race between Stacey Abrams, who's running again against Governor Brian Kemp of Georgia. There are some new articles, including a big one in the New York Times, basically saying that she is not doing as well as expected, despite having a lot of supporters and a lot of fundraising. What are you looking at in terms of the Georgia Governor's race?
Anita Kumar:
It's a tough one. Georgia is the state I think that people have been really looking at in the last cycle or two that's saying it's really going to turn blue, it's going to go democratic, and there are definitely some inroads. We've seen that in some of these races, but the governor's race is still a tough hill to climb. It's going to be very difficult for her because everything is going for him in terms of the state and how this has been looking over decades really. She's got more to do and you see people a little bit worried about that. This is obviously the second time she's run statewide, so this is going to be very difficult, and we're seeing some of that. Look, we've got the next couple months to see though, how much money are they raising, what kind of ads are they putting out there. I think this is really the moment in these next couple months where we're going to see what that operation looks like.
Farai Chideya:
Just in general, when you look at the country right now, after two plus years of COVID, after a lot of vicissitudes in the economy, the great resignation and inflation, and then a reigning in of inflation, changes of interest rates that affect housing, when I rattle off a laundry list like that, what I see, Anita, is people changing where they're putting their attention. Sometimes they're really focused on the economy, sometimes they're really focused on threats to democracy, and things have changed already in this midterm cycle based on where people are putting their attention. Do you think it's possible people's attention will continue to shift and that we may not have a clear map of what's going to motivate voter behavior?
Anita Kumar:
One of the things I found really interesting is that at some point, even a couple years ago, even at the beginning of the cycle, there were Democrats who really thought that COVID was going to continue to be sort of, the dominant issue, and of course, it is a huge issue in this country. People are still getting infected, we have variants, we have deaths, we even have a new vaccine that's going to be available soon. It is an issue, but it does seem that a lot of America has turned the page. A lot of people are going back to school and going back to work and trying, at least in some ways, to go back to that pre-pandemic life. That's how we've seen other things come to the forefront, and I think there's a realization from Democrats that, that's not going to be the number one issue. They need to talk about some of these issues we've been talking about, which is democracy, extremism, Republicans wanting to talk about inflation and immigration. We're back to some of those other issues and I think we've already seen a big shift in what those issues are over this cycle, and I think we're going to continue to see a shift.
Farai Chideya:
That was Anita Kumar, POLITICO's Senior Editor of Standards and Ethics. Coming up next, more with POLITICO Senior Editor, Anita Kumar, on the midterms and key races to watch. Plus, author Carmen Rita Wong on her new memoir, Why Didn't You Tell Me? and her journey following Her mother's death to uncover hidden truths about her family's origins. That's on Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. If you're just joining us, we're talking all things midterms with Anita Kumar, POLITICO's first ever Senior Editor of Standards and Ethics. With the 2022 midterms coming up and many questions about voter suppression, voter fraud, and the security of our nation's democracy, we wanted to get a high level overview of what's on the horizon. We turn now, to looking at some specific races and what they might mean for the general election in November. Let's continue our conversation. The New York Times recently declared that Pennsylvania is the center of the political universe when it comes to the midterms. POLITICO obviously has also been doing great coverage, and I am a subscriber to a whole bunch of your newsletters. Biden and Trump were both campaigning there recently. What's at stake in Pennsylvania and what are you watching?
Anita Kumar:
The fact that both, Joe Biden and Donald Trump were there just shows you how incredibly important this state is. This is an interesting one, and we've seen some different issues here. Dr. Oz, the Republican, is very aligned with Donald Trump, so we're looking at how that resonates in Pennsylvania, how Donald Trump still resonates there. He's not doing so well though. He's been struggling. He has not been doing well in the polls, and Republicans are hoping to narrow the race there by attacking the democratic nominee, who's the Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman.
Anita Kumar:
Fetterman's had an interesting time here because obviously, he's had some health issues. He's been not able to campaign as much as he wanted. He had to sit things out. There is some worry that even though he's been doing pretty well in the polls, that he hasn't been out enough campaigning. We're kind of seeing a couple different things with both of these men, and it's going to be very interesting to see what's going to happen. I think this is one of those ones that's going to... We say, everything's going to be close and you never know, but this one is one that people do think might come down to the wire.
Farai Chideya:
Let's go to Alaska. The former vice presidential candidate and governor, Sarah Palin, recently lost a special election for the only House seat in Alaska to Mary Peltola, a Democrat who served in the state legislature for 10 years. Peltola and Palin, and quite possibly a second GOP candidate, are also going to have a rematch in the fall because that was a special election. Here's Peltola talking about her heritage.
Mary Peltola:
I am Yu'pik. I'm very proud to be Yu'pik, but I'm a lot more than just my ethnicity and I want to really share the values of our region of working together and working collaboratively and holding each other up. I want to hopefully, really bring those values to Washington DC.
Farai Chideya:
Sarah Palin has a lot of name recognition. I remember being at the RNC when she was on stage as the vice presidential candidate. Is this more of a one-off or a sign of changing party affiliations for Alaska?
Anita Kumar:
Alaska always talks about being so independent. They have an independent streak, so you never really know. I will say that Sarah Palin did lose, but remember she's back on the ballot again. Both of those women are. They were both trying to fill a House seat just until the end of the year, essentially, and now they're trying for a two year term. Anything can happen again. I do think that Democrats are cheering what happened in Alaska. They say, "Look, this is somewhere that maybe Democrats can make some inroads," someone who campaigned on being someone who can be bipartisan, that can work with both parties, that can bring things home to Alaska, that people in Alaska aren't looking for someone like Sarah Palin who got the endorsement of Donald Trump, someone that was so polarizing. I don't know if we're ready to say things have changed. I think we need to see what happens in November.
Farai Chideya:
In Florida, the Republican Governor, Ron DeSantis, is running against Democrat, Charlie Crist, and Florida is generally considered a red state. Crist has played on both sides of the partisan aisle. What's going on there?
Anita Kumar:
I'm watching this closely because this is my old stomping grounds. I used to work as a reporter in Florida. I actually covered Charlie Crist way back in the day. Charlie Crist was a member of Congress. He just resigned to focus on the race. He's running again statewide. He has lost in the past. He's running against Ron DeSantis, who is very much a Republican that a lot of people are saying is in the mold of Donald Trump. Donald Trump likes to believe that he actually helped Ron DeSantis get elected. He was losing and then he won, basically.
Anita Kumar:
This is something that we're watching very closely, partly because of course, we want to see what happens, we want to see who the next governor is, but also because Ron DeSantis is being talked about a lot for 2024 for the presidential race, and we haven't really talked about that. So much of what happens in the midterms. It lets us know what might be happening for 2024, in a couple ways. We're going to see key issues around the country that resonate with voters, but we're also going to see which people win statewide races that might run in 2024, and Ron DeSantis is definitely one of those people. He is running for reelection, but there are a lot of people that say he really wants to run for president one day, and we're going to see what his staying power is, if he can do this, and what that race is going to look like.
Farai Chideya:
Let's move ahead with Donald Trump, the former president, who has a number of different legal questions pending. Not only about whether someone like Florida Governor, Ron DeSantis, will end up being a better candidate for the GOP for the 2024 elections than Donald Trump, but also about the Mar-a-Lago revelations in terms of top secret and secret documents. Do you see that affecting the midterms, and if so, how?
Anita Kumar:
This is a very, very key question, but I tend to think that the people that like Donald Trump think that the investigation is partisan or as he says, a witch hunt, and they're going to dismiss it, and those that hate Donald Trump are going to see it as, this is exactly what they said would happen. I don't know if anyone's mind is going to be changed because the country is so split. We saw that in the last couple presidential elections, and I don't know if this is going to change anyone's mind. Now, you did mention there's a number of investigations. I think this could really be a game changer if we see what happens.
Anita Kumar:
There's a couple months to go and we don't know exactly what the FBI and other law enforcement officials are going to do. Are they going to charge more people? Are they going to try to hold President Trump accountable for what they said was wrongdoing? We don't know. We know that law enforcement, particularly federal law enforcement, tries not to interfere with elections. Famously they tried, but then did interfere in the 2016 election with Hillary Clinton and her emails. We don't really know what they're going to do, but I think it could impact it depending on what law enforcement decides to do over the next couple months.
Farai Chideya:
I just want to wrap up with a little something about you. You were a White House correspondent for many years, and you reported on President Trump's reelection campaign, Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign, President Obama's 2012 reelection campaign, with all of that experience under your belt, how has covering politics changed over the past decade? From your perspective, what's different?
Anita Kumar:
It's funny to think this, but at the time, covering President Obama and covering his reelect, that's when I came into covering the White House in 2012, it really felt like the country was split, that Democrats and Republicans and people across the country couldn't get along. Things were so partisan, they were so polarized, but I think that over the last decade, I've seen that it's gotten more so. I just couldn't have imagined really how much it has, and I think part of that is the candidates and the people that are out there, who ran and who became President. Donald Trump, obviously. As we mentioned before, you either love him or you hate him. I think that's part of it.
Anita Kumar:
I think it's also social media has taken off in a way that we couldn't really imagine then. Of course, there was social media and President Obama really loved to say that he was one of the first, if not the first, president that really made use of social media, but it's really taken off in a way that now, people are reading and seeing things. They're only, sort of, looking at things they agree with. You can catch up on the news, but only read things that are like-minded, so you're not seeing both sides. I think what I've seen is things get more polarizing, more disinformation, more people not understanding the full picture of what's going on.
Farai Chideya:
Well, Anita Kumar, just so grateful for your insights and thanks for coming on again.
Anita Kumar:
Thanks for having me.
Farai Chideya:
That was Anita Kumar, former White House correspondent and POLITICO Senior Editor of Standards and Ethics. Coming up next, more with writer Carmen Rita Wong on her new memoir, Why Didn't You Tell Me? and her work on uncovering her own family's histories following the passing of her mother. You're listening to Our Body Politic. This is Our Body Politic. We just finished talking about the landscape around the 2022 midterm elections. We are going to be covering that all fall, and now, we are turning to a new memoir written by author Carmen Rita Wong.
Farai Chideya:
Imagine growing up feeling like you never really fit into your own family, to then later discover that that little voice, your gut instinct, was right. That your own family kept you in the dark about key details of your identity and heritage. That's what happened to writer, Carmen Rita Wong, who in her latest book, Why Didn't You Tell Me? shares her deeply personal journey, an investigation into her past after discovering that her family, and even her race, are not what she's been told her whole life. Formerly, Carmen Rita Wong was co-creator and television host of CNBC's On the Money, and a national advice columnist. Today, she joins us to talk about her new memoir and how race and culture in America shape our identities. Welcome Carmen.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Hi Farai. Thank you so much for having me.
Farai Chideya:
This book is amazing. I come from a line of writers. My grandmother was a writer, my mother was a writer, and my grandmother had an unfinished memoir because she said, "I can't finish this book until Emma is dead," and Emma was her mother, but even once her mother died, she never published a memoir and she had a complicated relationship with her own mother. You go there. You go through the good, the bad, the ugly, the funny, all of it. What gave you the strength to say, "I'm just going to talk about things as they are?"
Carmen Rita Wong:
Oh my goodness. Let's just say it took years and years of fortifying myself first. I've been thinking about and wanting to write a memoir for decades, but I finally did it, partially because I felt this clock ticking, which the ticking got, of course faster, when my brother became sick. Folks don't live too long in my family, and I really felt also that things in the outside world, the country we live in, were shifting quite a bit. I just said, "This is the time." I do think there's a really big gift though, by the way, in hitting a certain milestone as in the 5-0.
Farai Chideya:
Yep, both of us have been there.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Kind of say, "All right, now or never, and what are you going to do? Let's do it."
Farai Chideya:
Let's get to a key revelation. There's many revelations, but this one is one that's critical. The man you thought that your father, was not actually your father, and you found that out at 31. Take us there.
Carmen Rita Wong:
That's not even the biggest surprise, by the way. There's even more after that. I thought that was it.
Farai Chideya:
This book is full of many surprises.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Let me tell you. I thought that, that was it at 31. I really did. My mother was sick with cancer. I hadn't been speaking to her for a couple of years. We had a very, very difficult relationship. She was a very damaged woman, so I don't want to give too much away, but she was sick. She had cancer, and my stepfather and her had divorced, and he was dating someone, and I guess he told this lady the secret, and this lady said, "Isn't she dying? You can't let her take this to the grave," so my stepfather was the one who ended up telling me that I wasn't Poppy Wong's kid.
Farai Chideya:
Wow.
Carmen Rita Wong:
That was devastating because I'd never... He said he was my father. Now, unfortunately, there was another surprise that happened 10 years later. I never felt a part of that family, that second family. I always felt connected to my brother, so it was really devastating to suddenly lose that connection to my brother, which I decided I didn't lose anything. God damn it. But to lose being Chinese.
Farai Chideya:
Yes.
Carmen Rita Wong:
That was devastating. I can't tell you how much it ripped my heart out because when we talk about race and being a race... Yes, it's the outward appearance. Sure, it's how you were raised, but it's part of being a part of a community, a culture of people with a deep history. I always felt a connection to that. Poppy Wong was always in my life. He recently passed away, and after my brother passed away of course, I had to take care of him, and as you're managing, take care of him and his sickness as well and bury him. That still today, is my father.
Farai Chideya:
Yes.
Carmen Rita Wong:
I may not be Chinese, but I am a Wong.
Farai Chideya:
Yep, a hundred percent.
Carmen Rita Wong:
And that's that.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, yeah.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Because it's funny, I've had some people ask me like, "Oh, are you going to change your last name?" And I'm like, "That's a ridiculous question," because it's like saying to someone who's adopted and finds their birth parents, "Oh, you're going to change your name to your birth parents'?" Well, of course not. This is the person who was raised as my parent. It's connected to a race of people, sure, but what I'm connected to is the family and my history for the first 31 years of my life and being a Wong, and that's it. I'm a Wong. I may not be biologically Chinese, but I'm a Wong.
Farai Chideya:
Why don't you lay out your origin story for me. If you were to tell people what this book is about, what is it about to you?
Carmen Rita Wong:
Well, I'll tell you. Overall, it's about truth. Truth in answering the question, who am I? Having other people in your life answer the question, who am I? Who are you? It's that search for the truth. I wrote it a little bit like a page turner, a thriller mystery, because that's how my life has lived out, with surprises at every corner, but I'll also say, it's a story about mothers and daughters. It's a story about identity. A lot of stories about whether it's adoption or in vitro, when people are looking for their parents, they don't have the added element of race thrown in.
Farai Chideya:
Yep.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Let's just say, I started out my life in Harlem, uptown Manhattan with a large Dominican family of all colors, and a Chinese father. Ended up, my mother's second marriage to an Anglo-American in New Hampshire, and the shock of the late 70s and 80s-
Farai Chideya:
One of the most diverse states in the nation. Sorry.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Listen, Farai. Oh, you should have seen what it was like in the late 70s, early 80s. We were martians, moon people, and not treated very well.
Farai Chideya:
Can you just tell the story about your family driving up to the house?
Carmen Rita Wong:
My new stepfather decided he had to teach my mother how to drive because she was pregnant with their first child. My brother and I, us little brown kids, were in the backseat and it was nighttime because it was after work, and he's teaching her how to drive in our neighborhood. We are just a few doors down from our own house and we get pulled over by the police. The neighbors had called the police on us because "Puerto Ricans are casing the neighborhood". I learned a lot of lessons that day. I learned we were not welcome. I learned fear of the police. Then of course, as early as when I had my CNBC show and I had to drive into New Jersey, I was getting pulled over by police in the immigration sweeps. And then, there was a time the school had to take the bus to a field trip in Montreal and Quebec and immigration stopped the bus because of me. I used to say to my brother because he married a black Guyanese wife, my wonderful sister-in-law, and he ended up living in Prince George County, Maryland, which is the-
Farai Chideya:
Majority black.
Carmen Rita Wong:
... goodest and wealthiest black county in the country, and he resented our time in New Hampshire a lot, and I said this to him, "Yes, we can be angry and bitter about it and sad, but also to understand that there is how we learned how this country is run, who runs it, how it works," and that gave us some advantages in life, and sense of understanding how to navigate it.
Farai Chideya:
That was author and financial journalist, Carmen Rita Wong, talking to us about her latest book, a memoir entitled, Why Didn't You Tell Me? Coming up next, more with writer, Carmen Rita Wong, on her new memoir, Why Didn't You Tell Me? and her work on uncovering her own family's histories following the passing of her mother. You're listening to Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. If you're just tuning in, we're talking with writer, Carmen Rita Wong, who in her latest book, a memoir entitled, Why Didn't You Tell Me? shares her journey to uncover truths behind what she's been told about her identity and family tree early in life. Carmen Rita Wong is former co-creator and television host of CNBC's, On The Money, and also used to be a national financial advice columnist. To continue with this, we have Carmen Rita Wong, who is as a child, a Chinese Dominican girl. Tell us a little bit about Poppy Wong and how you and your brother would stroll through these Chinese restaurants, and then I want to hear about your abuela and your Dominican family, too. Give us a sense of where you were circulating as a child.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Oh, the contrast. Boy, that prepared me for a lot in life. Poppy, as we called him, Poppy would come pick us up because my parents split when I was young, but he would come pick us up every weekend, couple times a week actually, but usually on the weekends it was dress up time because he'd take us to the fancy Chinese restaurants. In Chinatown, you have the restaurants with the duck and the ribs in the window, and I love that and that was our normal weekday. And then on the weekends, it was the very gold and red and expansive Chinatown restaurants with the dyess, and on the dyess, would be his "buddies". Poppy operated on the other side of the law, so these were gangsters, which he was as well, and his bosses, the Dons.
Carmen Rita Wong:
He would bring his two little brown children who did not look Chinese at all and parade us through. We were all dressed up. My abuela would dress us up in our finest. I had go-go boots. I had a little fur remnant coat from her seamstress job with Oscar de la Renta. She'd take remnants and sew these little calico coats for me and he would just bring us through, and he was loud, he made friends with everyone [inaudible 00:33:40]. He'd talk to everybody and bring us up there very proudly. And that was very formative if you think about what that communicates to a child. My grandmother dressing us up in our best and taking the time and attention to make things for me. Poppy, though his love was quite interesting and difficult. He was not necessarily a nice person, but him presenting us in such a way, it was very formative. It really gave me a sense of deserving space.
Carmen Rita Wong:
And then at home, it was the Dominican life. We have our cousins who are also Dominican Chinese across the street. I'm telling you, we had a whole family of dozens within a four block radius and abuelo, my abuelo, my grandfather, co-owned the cleaners and tailors on the corner of 125th and Broadway, which is now a Starbucks, people. He owned that for a long time and it was just a loud, high energy, delicious food, lots of love, but the one place that was a vacuum was my mother. That was kind of a black hole that was missing a lot. It's funny, I mention in the book that I don't remember her voice very much. I remember her being there, but I don't remember her saying anything. She was a bit detached, and I forgive her for that because she was married off for immigration reasons at the age of 19 to this Chinese gangster.
Farai Chideya:
Let's talk about proximity to whiteness. I got verbal butt whooping on Clubhouse one day when I was talking about African and Black American relations, and people just really came at me about, they said, "Well, you have the proximity to whiteness where you can earn money," basically talking about black American anti-African sentiment, which is true among some people. I'm half African, half black American, so that concept influenced how you even came to exist because your father's proximity to whiteness as a Chinese man was factored into how your mother was steered to marry him. Can you explain a little bit more about that?
Carmen Rita Wong:
Yes, yes. Listen, the layers and layers of racism and class, of course in the Caribbean, when you have such a strong African American indigenous population, then you have travelers and immigrants like the Chinese, or you end up with this system of whose at the top. Well, who's at the top? White folks, of course. Then Asian. In my family, Dominicans felt like, and my grandfather felt like, Chinese was the next thing closest to being white because Asians, who he knew in the Dominican Republic, oh, they had the stereotype of, they worked hard, they believed in education. They shared some of the things that their idea of white Americans have. Now, here's the funny thing, you mentioned proximity to whiteness. There was that, and that's the reason why he married off his daughters to Chinese, even though they were gangsters.
Carmen Rita Wong:
But then my mother marries an Anglo-American and talk about proximity to whiteness, that's the reason why I learned how to manage my money at 12 years old and had a savings account at 12, and read the Wall Street Journal with him. That's the reason why I had such a career in that space and understood these things. Even when I was an editor at Money Magazine, and this was in late 90s, 2000s, I said, "Why are we not in this space, brown and black people? Why should white folks be the only people with access to this knowledge?" It felt like some kind of a club. I decided to use my proximity to whiteness to move forward in a field that we did not exist in, but I don't know if I would've had that ability and gumption and entitlement if I hadn't lived in that atmosphere.
Farai Chideya:
Let's talk a little bit about Alex, if that's okay, your brother. You say, "Folks don't live too long in my family," and that just really hit me in the feels. Your brother was someone who was really important to you and died too young, and you dedicate the book to him. Who was he and is he, in that global spiritual sense?
Carmen Rita Wong:
He was the first and the only person to really see me and love me in all forms. He was the person, I would say even more so than my parents, that I was close to, that I had a closer bond with. He was that big brother who protected me in my youth, who I fought with in my teens, and then called and talked to every single day for a very long time. What was really special about him, was the only relationship where we could have an argument and at 30 seconds later be like, "Did you eat? What did you have for [inaudible 00:39:04]? What do you want for lunch?" It is such a piece, talk about fortitude, to have somebody like that in your life. And we told the truth to each other about things. He really was my rock and my wonder twin, as I say in the book.
Farai Chideya:
In addition to your brother, a passel of sisters, and you were put in a position to have to mother your siblings. What was it like to have to step into the role of mothering people when you were not a mother?
Carmen Rita Wong:
I sometimes dare not even think about that. It's such a painful thing. I'll tell you this. Parentification of children is one of the greatest forms of theft of love, in life. I was robbed of a childhood. I was taking care of newborn babies by the time I was 10. I was left home alone with them, which is just way too much responsibility. Let's just say, I've been in therapy for many years. The amount of anxiety... The anxiety-
Farai Chideya:
It's working. It's working.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Oh yeah, girl. This is what enabled me to actually do this. If you put that much responsibility on a child, it's too much. Also, I was not able to be a sister to my sisters. It robbed me of a relationship, of a sibling relationship with my sisters. We can't have a relationship like I had with my brother and I mourn that so, so much. I can't tell you. And then, you end up being like the mom where it's like, I love you more than you love me. Also, I was a kid. You're not the best parent when you're 11.
Farai Chideya:
Yep, yep.
Carmen Rita Wong:
You are upset because you can't hang out, talk to your friends, listen to a record. You have to change diapers and help crying babies and all of that. I wasn't the best caretaker either, because I would get angry and resentful. I did my best. When I really, really-
Farai Chideya:
You did a lot.
Carmen Rita Wong:
I did a lot, Farai. Let's just, I'm tired.
Farai Chideya:
And you now have your own child who's an incredible human being, who I've had the pleasure of getting to know a little bit and look forward to seeing over the years, so you have processed a lot and moved through many different things.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Having had that experience when I was young, meant that I was adamant that I was going to wait to have a child, and I was going to have one.
Farai Chideya:
And you did it.
Carmen Rita Wong:
I also was going to work on myself, so that I did not repeat my childhood or repeat the way my mother mothered. I was determined to do it differently.
Farai Chideya:
Oh, you're doing it, and you do talk in this book about what it's like to have to go through these changes of self identification and still hold the center of who Carmen Rita Wong is, so who's Carmen Rita Wong now?
Carmen Rita Wong:
Oh, Farai. Well, I am a constantly morphing thing, and if only because not just the outside world and its influence and my family's secrets, which keep changing as to who I actually come from, but because I'm constantly working on myself. What I'll say now is, I've endured also a lot of tragedy the past couple of years, losing my brother, losing my father, my daughter has long COVID, I had an accident earlier this year, severe accident, so I am definitely at a space where I am more fully and truly myself than I've ever been. It means making my circles smaller. It means focusing and caring on things that are very important, really important, and knowing what that is like to me. It means that I am still in my mind, very much China-Latina, but much more Latina. I've always been much more Latina because my mother, and being a great support to my nieces and a great mom. My nieces are black-Chinese, they're black Wongs. My daughter is Blancita. She's white Latina. I have all of these things and I am all of these things, so that's where I'm at now, today, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
Where are you at as a creator? This book about your complicated family came out of you being a creator and you putting your voice out in the world, and when I look at the picture of you on The Real Cost of Living you're doing, if I may be-
Carmen Rita Wong:
A performance?
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. It's you with a certain type of hair, like, "Hey, I'm the cute financial advisor. I'll tell you how to manage your money," and this to me is a different Carmen Rita Wong, who is, you were stepping into your destiny as a creator, so who are you now after all of this?
Carmen Rita Wong:
I am what I've always wanted to be since I was a kid, a writer, and a different kind of performer. Let's put it this way. I no longer perform as a version of myself. I will no longer do that. I did that because I was told I had to do that. I had to straighten my hair. I had to be a certain weight. I had to wear certain clothes in order to succeed, in that majority white world. I did that because that was what I was told. My mother raised me with that whole immigrant, doctor, lawyer or MBA. That's it. You have no choice. You can't be a writer. You can't be an actor or performer.
Carmen Rita Wong:
You can't do these things because I didn't work so hard, so you could do that stuff. I lived the life she wanted me to live. I lived a life I thought I had to live. Now finally, when I decided that's it, I'm doing this book. I'm selling this book the way I want to write it, which was a struggle, it ended up in the best place and it just solidified that I'm on the right track of just being myself. And Farai, to have this done with crown, to have the New York Times review it so well, it's amazing. The validation is incredible, at 51 years old, who knew?
Farai Chideya:
51 years young. Hello?
Carmen Rita Wong:
Like I said, people pass young in my family. Every year is a gift, every bit of it.
Farai Chideya:
We've talked about a lot of things, but there's further adventures in your book, and that's DNA, and I don't want to talk about your revelations from DNA, but I'll give you a little bit from my family. Different members of my family, not me, have taken DNA tests and someone came back with a result saying, "We're third cousins and one of your relatives apparently passed through X country, and I'm a result of that," from a one night stand with my mom.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Oh, whoa.
Farai Chideya:
I have been trying to figure out who person X was. I have some theories, but in this book, there's some final plot twists that come from DNA. Without talking about that, to leave people with mystery-
Carmen Rita Wong:
Without giving it away.
Farai Chideya:
Right. What do you think of the whole level of revelations about who we are that also comes from DNA? Good, bad, indifferent? All of the above.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Lots of feelings. Lots of feelings. I'm really glad I did it. My brother and I did it because we're kind of science geeks and also, because of these stories in my family, and of course, I'm really glad I did it because it showed me the truth. I believe that science can show you a lot of things, but in talking to people about this part, it's interesting. They don't want to know. They've heard in the family that maybe their grandparent had a child with someone else and that maybe this person's their cousin, and they don't want to know. I got lucky.
Carmen Rita Wong:
I knew that trying to contact this new family that was a revelation, could end up badly. Rejection, could end up with rejection. I think everybody has to make this choice themselves. I do believe that my mother lied for many reasons, and I go through that in the book, and one of them is just the inability to have choices. Really, all this new DNA stuff, it really comes to a head with patriarchy and politics and feminism. I don't look at it as separate. It's science, but it's anthropology in its culture and it has a lot of implications, so tread carefully, my friends.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah, be careful what you want to know about your fams.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Tread carefully.
Farai Chideya:
To live in truth is brave and beautiful, and you have done that, and it seems like you're good with your choices to not turn away from who you are and who your family is, and to love expansively across your family, including all the people who have different deficits, as we all do.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Thank you. Thank you, my friend. Yes. I got to tell you, living in truth is freedom. It's absolute freedom. Secrets and lies serve the person who is doing the lying and it doesn't serve yourself to lie to yourself either. Get to know yourself, who you really are, that inner voice that you've always had, and living in that has just been a tremendous freedom and I continue to try to listen to that.
Farai Chideya:
It's been such a pleasure talking to you, and definitely, your book is just full of life wisdom on so many different levels about how to be a human, how to be a woman, how to be a child, how to be a parent. Thank you so much, Carmen Rita Wong.
Carmen Rita Wong:
Thank you, Farai.
Farai Chideya:
That was author and financial journalist, Carmen Rita Wong, talking to us about her latest book, a memoir entitled, Why Didn't You Tell Me? Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week and everywhere you listen to podcasts. Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm host and executive producer, Farai Chideya. Nina Spensley is co-executive producer. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Traci Caldwell and Bridget McAllister are our bookers and producers. Emily J. Daly and Steve Lack are our producers. Natyna Bean and Emily Ho are our associate producers. Kelsey Kudak is our fact checker. Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Lauren Shield and engineered by Mike Goehler, Carter Martin, and Archie Moore. This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BeMe Community, Katie McGrath and JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.