What does it mean to age with purpose? In this week’s show, we are invited to hear a past conversation between Farai and author of Sign My Name to Freedom Betty Reid Soskin, who recently retired at age 100 from her work as a National Park Ranger and community historian. Then in “Our Body Politics Presents,” we hear more from Tonya Mosley’s podcast “Truth Be Told” where she speaks to Ayanna Brown, a mother who graciously details her cycle of loving, losing, grieving, and persevering. On the weekly segment, “Sippin’ the Political Tea” Farai speaks with professor and Vice Chair of preventive medicine at Northwestern University, Dr. Mercedes Carnethon and author of 55, Underemployed and Faking Normal, Elizabeth White on how to age well, physically, emotionally and financially.
Farai Chideya:
Hi folks. We are so glad that you're listening to Our Body Politic. If you have time, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps other listeners find us and we read them for your feedback. We are here for you, with you and because of you. Thank you.
Farai Chideya:
This is Our Body Politic. I'm Farai Chideya. Later on our show, we're going to talk about aging well and how to start thinking about it when we're younger. When I envision aging with purpose and vigor, the first person I think about is my friend Betty Reid Soskin. Betty recently retired at age 100 from her work as a national park ranger and community historian. Last fall, I joined Betty and her family to celebrate her centennial at her workplace, The Rosie the Riveter World War Two Home Front National Historical Park. People traveled from all over the world to hear Betty speak about people too often left out of history.
Farai Chideya:
I interviewed Betty in 2014 when she was 92 years old and afterwards, we became friends. Intergenerational friendships sustain my soul. Today, I wanted to play you and her a little time capsule of that conversation. In between this interview and her retirement, Betty wrote her memoir, Sign My Name To Freedom. She got a commemorative coin from President Obama after lighting the national Christmas tree and then fought off a home invader who stole that same coin and punched her in the face. Yes, she fought him off at age 94.
Farai Chideya:
So, here is to aging with purpose. Betty, you continue to inspire me and I hope to see you soon.
Farai Chideya:
From the archives, originally for the podcast One With Farai, here's my 2014 conversation with national park ranger and community historian Betty Reid Soskin, now retired.
Farai Chideya:
Hello Betty. It's an honor to have you with us.
Betty Reid Soskin:
Hello.
Farai Chideya:
So, why don't we just start with this park, which you have championed and at which you work, The Rosie the Riveter World War Two Home Front National Historical Park. That's a mouthful. Tell us what it is.
Betty Reid Soskin:
It sure is and the reason that it is so long is it started out to create a park that was an homage to the women who had worked on the home front during that wartime. And, once we got into the stories, it was so complex and there were so many stories within that story that the rest of that home front became obvious that needed to be included.
Farai Chideya:
So, most of us know who Rosie the Riveter is, the iconic image of women working in factories during World War Two and the actual flesh and blood women who did the work. How does a national park relate to this?
Betty Reid Soskin:
It was a part of a campaign to attract women into the workforce, but there were many, many women who are not included in that image. There was nothing that attracted black women into the workforce based on that Rosie the Riveter image, and I certainly didn't relate to it. 20-year-old Betty came into the workforce as a clerk in a Jim Crow segregated union hall that was in Richmond. I never saw a ship under construction, for instance. I was not a part of that larger picture. So, I had not really during that era ever related to Rosie the Riveter as an image that I aspired to.
Farai Chideya:
How do you think that we can tell stories about America that honor people, for example, who have served but also point out the inequities in who was even allowed to have opportunities?
Betty Reid Soskin:
It's so hard to go back and find myself in those times, and for a changing nation to even be able to realistically go back and revisit that era. But, had you gone back to two years before that, I would have been 18. I'd have been graduating from high school in Oakland. I would have been the child of a service worker's generation. Our fathers and our uncles were the Pullman porters and the waiters and the red caps and the janitors. Our mothers were the domestic servants. I would have followed that course.
Betty Reid Soskin:
And so, at 20, even working as a clerk in a Jim Crow union hall was a step up. It was probably the equivalent of today's young woman of color being the first in her family to enter college.
Farai Chideya:
So, I want to go forward in time through some of your life to the point where you are now.
Betty Reid Soskin:
After many, many years and many lives, I became connected with the National Park Service. I was acting as a consultant to the Department of Interior to plan this park and it was a first time for me. It was a case of how much social change had occurred over those decades since I was 20. This is something. The trajectory of my life is reflected in the entire nation and it's that trip through all those decades that makes me now a value to the national parks.
Farai Chideya:
So, why did you feel it was important to work with the national parks?
Betty Reid Soskin:
It was very obvious to me from the first planning meetings because I was in that room as the only person of color with a group of planners from the National Park Service, the Department of Interior, wanting to conceive what this park... How it would be shaped. And, I was the only one in the room that could see the scattered sites that were going to be defining this park and these sites were almost universally sites of segregation and I'm the only person in the room that had any reason to even recognize that. What gets remembered is determined by who's in the room doing the remembering and I'm the only person in that room who had any reason to even know it. So, from the outset, I was able to provide some aspects of the story that previously had not been recognized.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. Yeah. But, you yourself have been consistently an activist and advocate for social justice and...
Betty Reid Soskin:
Yes, I have.
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. Tell us a little bit about some of the different roles that you have played in that ongoing struggle.
Betty Reid Soskin:
I entered school in Oakland, California. I had never been to a segregated school, so that my education all the way through high school was open, for most of my life, even though segregation obviously existed and it's been part of our lives forever. It was not formal here. It was by gentleman's agreement. It was subtle. So, I was confronted with full blown racial segregation at the age of 18 or 20. I had not questioned my place in the world, even as a high school graduate.
Betty Reid Soskin:
I married a man whose family had come out here during the Civil War. His great-grandfather had been a boot maker on Market Street in San Francisco. Mel was in his third year at University of San Francisco, majoring in history and playing left half-back for the San Francisco Dons. We were pretty much privileged middle class African-Americans until the war started and then found ourselves a part of the natural migration of African-Americans for the war effort. That was really a game changer for this area and it was, I think, the point where I began to be radicalized politically.
Farai Chideya:
Why was that?
Betty Reid Soskin:
I think that I personally met formal discrimination for the first time. My husband volunteered to fight for his country and found himself in the messman's corps because all that a Navy man could do at the time was cook for his country. And, he refused. He had not volunteered to cook and he simply did not know that this was a black man's role. So, while he was gone, I had been working for the FBI in the San Francisco federal building in San Francisco and while he was volunteering to go back into the service, I transferred to the Air Force without realizing that the Air Force only hired African-American women as in the canteen or to clean mess rooms. And, I didn't know that. I had been hired in the clerical position, transferred in the clerical position, but I was not fitted for that.
Farai Chideya:
Because of your skin color. And, what did you do once you found out they weren't going to employ you as they said they would?
Betty Reid Soskin:
The lieutenant in charge of our section called the young woman, the young white clerk whose desk abutted mine, up to his desk. When she came back, she mentioned that he had told her that I was colored and that... At that point, I confronted him and said of course I was colored. But, why didn't he know that? And, he said, "Well, don't worry. It's all right, Betty. I've checked with your coworkers and they're all willing to work with you." Which was, for me, an insult. At which point I walked out on the Air Force so that Mel and I were both within about a week confronted with what was out and out racism.
Farai Chideya:
So, where did you go from there?
Betty Reid Soskin:
We went into business selling what was then called race records because there was suddenly a market for a black culture. These 98,000 people which perhaps 50,000 of them were African-Americans came into the Bay Area, bringing with them black culture, not being able to get any of the music that they could get back home. Suddenly, we were in business and we were very successfully in business.
Farai Chideya:
So, the store was named Reid's Records. Is that correct?
Betty Reid Soskin:
Yes. The store was named Reid's Records.
Farai Chideya:
And, how long were you able to keep it open?
Betty Reid Soskin:
It's still open.
Farai Chideya:
Really?
Betty Reid Soskin:
It's... We'll celebrate its 69th anniversary.
Farai Chideya:
Whoa. Congratulations. That is...
Betty Reid Soskin:
My youngest son is the proprietor.
Farai Chideya:
That's fantastic. So, I'm going to flash forward to today. You get to work as an ambassador of what it is that the Park Service has to offer with young people. Tell me about the work you do.
Betty Reid Soskin:
The thing that's important about the work that I do is that this history is so recent that it's not yet gotten into curricula. It's so important that that history be told accurately and truthfully in order to go back and revisit those years of 1941 to 1945 to get a baseline and get what you measure all of the social change that this country has been through over the last 70 years.
Farai Chideya:
Let me ask you how you keep your energy up. I mean, do you have some kind of a health regime or a...?
Betty Reid Soskin:
No. The only exercise I get is jumping in and out of my car. And, I think it's genetic. My great-grandmother was born into slavery in 1846 and died at 102 in 1948. My mother was born 1894 and died at 101 in 1995. And, I was born in 1921 and am still here.
Farai Chideya:
One final question on the Park Service, which is, what would you like to see happen in the next decade?
Betty Reid Soskin:
My introduction into the Park Service was on the high experimental basis. I don't think any other ranger became a ranger at 85. We're beginning now to open up the stories, for instance, for LGBT people. That would have been unheard of, just as African-American sites would have been unheard of. I'm not sure then where the national park is going to take us, but as an institution, it certainly is the best, America's best idea.
Farai Chideya:
That was a 2014 interview with newly retired national park ranger, community historian and national treasure Betty Reid Soskin. She's the author of Sign My Name To Freedom.
Farai Chideya:
Coming up next, the Our Body Politic Presents series brings you more gems from Truth Be Told, one mother's path from loving, losing and grieving to persevering. Plus, aging well physically and emotionally. That's on Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Welcome back to Our Body Politic. With Our Body Politic Presents, we bring you stories and conversations from independent voices in audio, and this week we're bringing you highlights from the episode Perseverance from Tonya Mosley's podcast Truth Be Told. In it, we hear how a mother learns to persevere and make a positive impact after the loss of her son. Let's take a listen to Truth Be Told.
Tonya Mosley:
These days, reporters rarely get to go back to stories they covered. But, sometimes we try. I'm grabbing champagne for a do-over with Ayanna Brown, a woman I met 12 years ago. I covered the death of her son.
Speaker 5:
Alajawan Brown was killed in April of 2010. The shooter, Curtis Walker, was out on community supervision for drugs when he mistook the boy's jacket for one of a rival gang member.
Tonya Mosley:
He was 12 years old. I've kept in touch on and off through the years and recently we started talking again on the phone. A lot has changed. When we first met, she was a school bus driver. She's since moved on to work full time for the foundation she created in Alajawan's name. Her days are filled with granting scholarships for kids who need help buying sports uniforms and equipment. She's also back in school, getting a bachelor's in business and trauma recovery.
Tonya Mosley:
We talk about Alajawan. This year, he would have been 24 years old.
Tonya Mosley:
How did you choose to name Alajawan?
Ayanna Brown:
Okay. I've got four babies. Alajawan is baby number four. My first three babies are all named after my husband Louis.
Tonya Mosley:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Ayanna Brown:
I said, "I keep naming all of these kids after this man and he ain't done nothing. His body ain’t grew He ain't showing up."
Tonya Mosley:
Black women, especially black moms, are called a lot of things. Pillar of strength is one that I always hear. But, those pillars, they're built on a foundation and right now, with our world in collective mourning, I wanted and needed to take a look at that foundation. So, for this episode of Truth Be Told, I am headed back to Seattle to get a closer look at Ayanna's truth and the story that so many black mothers deserve to tell, and that's the tremendous cycle of loving, losing, grieving and persevering. How do you not only survive but thrive through tough times? Black moms like Ayanna Brown have some answers.
Ayanna Brown:
We can't be at a kitchen table, but we'll make the best of it in the car.
Tonya Mosley:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Ayanna Brown:
So, I thought then since you were recording that I would drive.
Tonya Mosley:
Okay. That sounds good. And, you're good at driving. We know that.
Tonya Mosley:
We put the champagne on ice for later and then hit the road. Driving is Ayanna's thing. Sometimes, when she wants to clear her head, she jumps in the car and drives for hours, listening to music. Her car is kind of like her own personal hiding spot, a place for Ayanna to be alone with her memories.
Ayanna Brown:
I'm the chick that likes the music blasting. And, the faster the song is, the better for me.
Tonya Mosley:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tonya Mosley:
What does it do for you?
Ayanna Brown:
It makes me feel good. I am the chick that dances as if no one is watching when I'm in the car by myself. Sometimes, it brings back memories. For instance, E-40's Tell Me When To Go, that was the last song that I danced with my baby to a few hours earlier.
Tonya Mosley:
A few hours before Alajawan was killed, he was with his mom, helping her out at work. He really wanted to buy some new football cleats from Walmart. But, before he could do that, Ayanna made him stay with her to clean the school bus.
Ayanna Brown:
So, I was on one side of the bus and he was on the other side, and then we started racing. So, we were trying to see who could clean the windows the fastest. So, I'm starting from the steering wheel back. He started from the back to the passenger door. And so, music is playing, we were singing, we were clowning. Then, that song came on and he was like, "You got to dance with me, Mama." And so, we drop our cleaning stuff and we literally had the bus rocking. It was shaking backwards and forward with me and him dancing.
Tonya Mosley:
After that impromptu dance party, Ayanna let Alajawan head to Walmart with instructions that he take the city bus back home. A few hours later, on her way home from work, Ayanna drove past that bus stop where Alajawan was supposed to get off and made note of the ambulances and police cars.
Ayanna Brown:
And, I'm praying for the strength and the family of whoever that is laying there. I didn't know that I was praying for myself.
Tonya Mosley:
She made it home, fully expecting Alajawan to be there ready to show off those cleats. When he wasn't, she got in her car and drove back to that chaotic scene at the bus stop.
Ayanna Brown:
And, there was an officer there and I pulled up. I said, you know, my husband was driving. I was on the passenger side. And, I said, "Excuse me. You know, what can you tell me about the victim? My baby is missing and I'm worried." And, he said... He said, "How old is your son?." I said, "He's 12." And, he said, "No, ma'am. This is not your son. They're saying that's no way this is the body of a 12-year-old." So, we drove off and left our baby laying there.
Speaker 7:
The way I've described it is it was like a five-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan. That's just how big this man was.
Tonya Mosley:
Alajawan's murder happened three years before Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson shot and killed Michael Brown. Wilson and Brown were around the same weight and height. But, Wilson described Brown as kind of superhuman. This perpetuation of the black brute stereotype, white supremacist rhetoric used during the lynching era that painted black men and boys as menacing, bigger, stronger and more powerful than they actually are.
Tonya Mosley:
When I heard Darren Wilson describe Michael Brown, I thought of Alajawan because when I arrived at that bus stop where Alajawan was killed, a group of teenagers tapped me on my shoulder and told me straight up, "The sheriff's department is saying that this is a man under that sheet, but it's not. It's a boy." When I questioned authorities about it, they were dismissive, restating what they told Ayanna, that the body was an adult man involved in a gang shootout. 24 hours later, they correct themselves, but the narrative was already out there. These media missteps, they are not small errors. Think of it like this. The sheriff's department's refusal to see Ayanna's son as a child... In many ways, it robbed Alajawan in death of his boyhood and his innocence.
Tonya Mosley:
There's an interior world that grief creates, a world that prioritizes the good times and a belief that there's a reason for our pain and suffering.
Ayanna Brown:
The only reason I'm even breathing is because it's an automatic function. And so, I know God is bringing me through this. I know He sees me through it. I know He's helping me. He's providing. He strengthens me. And, even though He strengthens me, I still feel so minuscule and so weak and so irrelevant. And, I know that if it's this hard for me now and I have a relationship with Him, I couldn't imagine surviving this not believing in God. There's just... There is... There is no way.
Farai Chideya:
You're listening to Our Body Politic. We are bringing you as part of the Our Body Politic Presents series selections from the podcast Truth Be Told with Tonya Mosley. We're currently listening to part of their episode Perseverance. Let's continue.
Tonya Mosley:
Ayanna has come to believe that saying, be careful what you ask for.
Ayanna Brown:
I used to ask God all the time to use me however He saw fit. Use me to bless somebody else. Well, after I lost my baby, I didn't make that request anymore and I admit that had I known in advance that he was part of the deal for that prayer to be answered, I wouldn't have made that request.
Tonya Mosley:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Tonya Mosley:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Ayanna Brown:
So, he's still... He... You know, because... Because He's God, He still used me. He uses me the way He wants. But, as far as me asking Him, I didn't ask anymore.
Tonya Mosley:
Yeah. A lot of people stay angry and stay in that space of anger. How do you keep yourself from being there?
Ayanna Brown:
Oh. I can't let me keep being angry. It's exhausting. When I was angry, when I really... When I realized that I was in the angry stage, I was really nasty. What keeps me going now is my hurt, so...
Tonya Mosley:
It fuels you.
Ayanna Brown:
It does. It does. When I'm laying in bed and the rest of the world is quiet and... Well, my husband's not quiet. That man is snoring, keeping up a lot of noise. But, when everybody else is sleeping and resting, I'm crying and the madder I get at him, the more I do for my baby. So, I keep... I keep converting what could be my hurt, my…
Tonya Mosley:
And, when you say him, you're talking about the person who killed your son.
Ayanna Brown:
My baby's killer. Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Ayanna Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Ayanna Brown:
I allow my hate... What could be my hate for him, I convert that into my love for my baby. And so, since both of those are never ending sources, my hate for him, my love for him... As long as I'm alive, this work will continue.
Tonya Mosley:
Have you ever come to a place of forgiveness of this man who killed your son?
Ayanna Brown:
I have. I have, actually.
Tonya Mosley:
You have? What does that look like?
Ayanna Brown:
I actually told him that and I started out by thanking him. I thanked him for making sure that all of our holidays feel like something was missing. I thanked him for making sure Alajawan wouldn't graduate from high school. I thanked him for ensuring Alajawan wouldn't live his life dreams. I thanked him that our daughter-in-law would never join our family. I thanked him for making sure I'll never get to love on the grandbabies that Alajawan would have given. He gets all the credit for that.
Ayanna Brown:
And, I did tell him that I forgive him, but I made it crystal clear that it wasn't for the ease of his conscience or the lack thereof. It was for me and my healing.
Tonya Mosley:
Yeah.
Ayanna Brown:
And, my survival and my strength.
Tonya Mosley:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Ayanna Brown:
It was... It was to free me.
Tonya Mosley:
That word, freedom... With passing time, does it feel like you're getting there?
Ayanna Brown:
I'm more fluid now. I'm not stuck. Pain is still there. It still hurts me as if it just happened. That pain never goes away.
Tonya Mosley:
Shortly after Alajawan died, Ayanna started doing things that would give her the motivation to get up in the morning, to do more than that automatic function of breathing, like the work of the foundation. The number to reach it is Alajawan's old cell phone.
Speaker 8:
Please leave your message for...
Speaker 9:
Alajawan Brown.
Tonya Mosley:
You still got it.
Ayanna Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Ayanna Brown:
When we started the foundation in 2012, we knew we were going to need a business number and we decided since we were still paying for his phone, why not make his number the business number.
Tonya Mosley:
You're so open and expressive about Alajawan. So many people know his story. You're working on behalf of him. [crosstalk 00:27:22]
Ayanna Brown:
I'm even going to school on behalf of him. My degree is for him. I'm going to school for my baby, to enhance the work that I'm doing for him and it's symbolically his diploma as well because he's not here to get it. So, his daddy's... His daddy graduated high school for him. His mama's going to graduate college for him.
Tonya Mosley:
Listening to Ayanna makes me think of that Marvel show WandaVision, where Vision says to Wanda, "What is grief if not love persevering?." The Bible talks about this. Ayanna and I take a minute to read Corinthians 13.
Ayanna Brown:
"Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It does not dishonor others. It is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
Ayanna Brown:
I catch myself doing that, displaying this where Alajawan is concerned. The patience of learning to do things, the patience of going to school, the patience of going through these processes to make these changes and to make these differences... It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. My love for my baby is... That's my perseverance. That's what makes me do what I do.
Ayanna Brown:
And, it's so funny because you know how after you lose somebody, you're sitting around, especially when it first happens and everybody's sitting around laughing and talking and reminiscing then. Right? And so, when me and my kids would be together and something weird would happen or crazy would happen, I would tell them, "Okay. Remember this moment so later on when I'm gone, you could remember this about me. Put this in your treasure chest." I had no clue that I would be the one opening up that treasure chest and when I tell you that I think if I am not the richest, I am one of the richest women in the world because I have those memories that are so precious and rare.
Tonya Mosley:
With the music bumping, it's time to head back to Ayanna's house. She's leading a Zoom call with city leaders about creating more programs for young people. What I'm seeing in Ayanna, what I'm learning from her, comes into focus. There is really no such thing as healing from a tragedy like this. It's about managing the pain and using it as fuel to persevere.
Speaker 10:
[inaudible 00:31:09] When was the last time you heard [inaudible 00:31:12].
Farai Chideya:
That was host Tonya Mosley's Truth Be Told and a portion of their episode Perseverance, which is part of our Our Body Politic Presents series.
Farai Chideya:
Coming up next, our weekly roundtable, Sipping The Political Tea, takes a look at healthy aging with author Elizabeth White and Dr. Mercedes Carnethon. You're listening to Our Body Politic.
Farai Chideya:
Each week on the show, we bring you a roundtable called Sipping The Political Tea. Joining me this week for a special roundtable on aging is Dr. Mercedes Carnethon, professor and vice-chair of preventative medicine at the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine. Welcome, Dr. Carnethon.
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Farai Chideya:
And, we've also got Elizabeth White, the author of 55, Underemployed and Faking Normal. Also, a fellow at the incubator Ideas 42. Hi, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth White:
Hi. Glad to be here.
Farai Chideya:
This week, we're discussing aging. We're going to look at our own journeys with aging, how to navigate the healthcare system and aging-related medical needs, plus what women of color in their thirties, forties and fifties can do to set themselves up to age well physically, emotionally, financially and more. And, I know for me, it is a season where I see the generation above mine in my family really struggling with choices about health care. Do I get the double knee replacement or deal with severe joint pain, for example? How do I communicate with my doctors?
Farai Chideya:
So, a group of friends of mine and I in our forties and fifties... I'm 52. Have made a pact to support each other's health now and in years to come. We are trying to build to stay around and stay in the game. So, there is many factors affecting our health. Work, finances, stress. Elizabeth, I want to start with you. You wrote 55, Underemployed and Faking Normal after attempting to re-enter the workforce in your mid-fifties. Tell us about your journey and what led you to tell your story to others.
Elizabeth White:
So, I have all the props and credentials. Harvard MBA. I have a master's in international studies from Johns Hopkins. I worked at the World Bank, et cetera. I am 68 now and in my mid-fifties hit an icy patch during the Great Recession where I lost two very, very good consulting jobs I'd had for a long time. They downsized. I was out of work, not worried because of my background. And, my phone stopped ringing and it didn't just stop ringing for a month or two. It went on for months.
Elizabeth White:
I wrote an essay describing what it feels like to suddenly be on the outside looking in at a life that's no longer yours. It got picked up by PBS and went viral. In a day, it had 11,000 responding and that's when I knew we were having a national crisis because the comments were, "Me too. This is my husband, my brother. Why are we not having a conversation about this?."
Farai Chideya:
Yeah. And so, how did you go about guarding your health as you realized that work and money were becoming tight? Because, the stress of life events and the reality of age discrimination can affect our health. What did you do?
Elizabeth White:
So, even during the pandemic, because I'm a little bit of a gym bunny, and when I couldn't go, a couple of friends... We would walk.
Farai Chideya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Elizabeth White:
We just walked and walked. And, I have other friends. Sometimes we cook together and share meals. And, at this point, at my age, health is the most important thing because if that goes, so much else goes and so to the extent that I can, I pay attention to what I eat. The walking keeps the stress down. I have a circle. I call them sort of my resilience circle of friends I can tell the truth to. The faking normal in my title was so many of us who are hurting are pretending we're okay when we're not okay. And so, I have women and a few men that I can go to and just be really candid with what's going on with me.
Farai Chideya:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Farai Chideya:
Dr. Carnethon, as you are listening to Elizabeth tell her story and hitting this wall in her mid-fifties but also having that resilience, what lessons can we draw from that as we think about aging and how it intersects with all these other factors like money?
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
The majority of my career has focused on chronic diseases. The heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, now lung diseases, that affect us and that are primary sources of disparities in life expectancy between people of color and the majority population. And, one thing that I've found is that healthy lifestyle is really the cornerstone, but the ability to make healthy lifestyle choices depends on one's resources and even before depending on the resources, it depends on one's ability to troubleshoot and problem solve. And so, I study chronic diseases and I believe that mental health and mental wellness is really the upstream factor that allows somebody to troubleshoot their situation, that allows them to be able to put themselves out there, ask for help when they need it, and identify a team to support them in achieving their healthy lifestyle goals.
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
I think what I've learned throughout my career is that we have to start with mental health as health before we can get to the necessary lifestyle changes, the initiative one has to take to advocate for themselves within a healthcare setting to get the care that they deserve. And, those factors combined can lead to healthier lifestyles as we age.
Farai Chideya:
You know, we've really been covering the mental health crisis that's going on in this country and it's so hard. As someone who struggled with my weight over much of my life, I am pretty much pulling up my big girl pants to figure out how I can... And, I'm not talking about weight for looks, you know? I'm talking about joints. I'm talking about knowing that my family has a history of joint replacements, intergenerationally. And, wanting to delay that or avoid it. How do you talk to people about making those changes at the point where they still have choices and they don't yet have active disease?
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
You know, I think it's really a conversation about the small changes and how making very small changes can lead to the development of habits that support a healthy lifestyle. It really does start with not blaming yourself, not taking in the negativity about certain conditions. You know, obesity is a condition that's highly stigmatized and a lot of people place blame on the obese individual rather than focusing on the factors that would support positive healthy lifestyle changes at any weight.
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
You know, there is a concept that was discussed for some time called the healthy obese or healthy overweight. Now, everyone isn't going to get down to a size four. That's not how things were meant to be. But, you need to be your best at the weight that works for you and I think when you make the changes to eat a healthy diet, prioritize getting sleep, engaging in activities that bring you joy and reduce your stress, over time some people will see changes in their weight and even when they don't, they may see changes in other parameters such as their blood pressure, their blood sugar levels that inform glucose that overall lead to a longer and healthier life.
Farai Chideya:
You are listening to Sipping The Political Tea on Our Body Politic. I am Farai Chideya and this week we are doing a special roundtable on health at every age with Dr. Mercedes Carnethon, professor and vice-chair of preventative medicine at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, and with Elizabeth White, the author of 55, Underemployed and Faking Normal.
Farai Chideya:
Elizabeth, what other tools have you found have helped you age in a way that you are clearly having all sorts of professional success and you seem like you're having a season of personal growth? You know?
Elizabeth White:
So one of the, the things just said is really around mindset and there's a lot of shame when you hit a financial icy patch and I've just seen this in so many people who cannot even tell family members, let alone friends, what's happening. This is happening actually to millions of people. You are not by yourself.
Elizabeth White:
You know, when you think back to 1965 when the Older Americans Act, which is our sort of framing legislation for old age policy... That was like in 1965 when life expectancy at birth was 70. So, we think of old age really still about frailty and decline. Right now, you'll see data that says children that are under five could well live to 100. So, we have a whole model that is so different. Working for 35 years, most people who then retire and could live another 20 years don't have 20 years of money. So, just making this normal to talk about, make it normal for a group of women to maybe think about living together. The old models aren't going to work with this new longevity.
Farai Chideya:
One thing I think about as we've been talking about money, jobs, stress, health, is all the research about how obesity also goes with food insecurity, not knowing where your next meal is coming from and also using food as medication. Like, the fats and sugars, let me tell you. They're some mood changers.
Farai Chideya:
Dr. Carnethon, you previously talked about how the strong black woman image can prevent women from seeking help when they're struggling with mental health. Give us some cultural context. You know, every culture has different things that are asked of us and that we ask ourselves. How does our self-image as black women affect our health and our aging?
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
We really value individualism and what people can do versus cultures that value community and the society. And, one of the characteristics of collectivist cultures is that we feel good about ourselves and we succeed when our entire community succeeds. And, when we think about that, if we applied that to black women, and there are various schemas that have been discussed, the superwoman schema, we can do it all, we are strong. That is really a very individualistic viewpoint when there are so many things that make us strong. What makes us strong are our family members. Maybe more women need to consider living together and supporting one another. The financial strains of child care could be mitigated if cousins and other family members lived together.
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
So, I think in sum, I would focus on the shift towards collectivism, towards caring for one another. That would provide a great deal more support and the type of resilience that's being highlighted here.
Farai Chideya:
I do want to ask about elder care. My family was lucky enough to be able to do home hospice for my grandmother, for example, and she did end of life care for her mother. And, that is not always possible and not always common. And, it's not just about the very end of life. Many people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, sometimes even eighties, are caring for people who are older than them or their age and have physical disabilities that require a lot of care. How do you talk to people who are active caregivers?
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
It's a real struggle and it blends with financial factors. It blends with the logistics. You know, right now, my husband's 100 year old grandmother who raised him when he came to America from Liberia is... You know, we're facing a crisis in how to continue caring for her. The sandwich generation, those of us in our thirties, forties and fifties who are caring for young children as well as aging adults, really do need supports. This is a case where I think government supports can be quite helpful, certainly within the... Within the space of providing care. If a family member has to leave their job to provide care for their loved one and they're willing to do so in their home, providing financial support, paying them to be that caregiver rather than moving them into an institution, is one model that can work.
Farai Chideya:
Elizabeth, as you look at having this resiliency collective, do you ever talk about the possibility that some of you may have cognitive declines?
Elizabeth White:
I remember long, long time ago I read this book called The Myth of the Black Superwoman. She was talking about during slavery when to make it palatable and acceptable to take your child, to sell your partner down to the next plantation, then the mythology around black women not feeling as much. We didn't miss our children as much. We wouldn't be devastated with our partner or spouse being sold somewhere, that that got sort of... We began to internalize that myth. But, the origin of it, that we are somehow not as fragile, don't need to be taken care of, don't have the same sorts of feelings...
Elizabeth White:
So, I think when we claim that strong woman mantle to really understand that it's not always there to serve us. We sort of deal with, I think, some of the pain that we're having or struggle that we're having in unhealthy ways because we feel we have to sort of present to the world that strong woman image. And, lots of my friends, we do think of should we be moving in together, three of us? Then, if we pool that money, then we could have a nurse there. These are conversations that are happening.
Farai Chideya:
You are speaking my language because I have a whole planned Golden Girls with one friend and we're going to try to see who else we can get in. You know? And, really, seriously, I have some things to figure out and I'm just absolutely thrilled to hear you talk about it.
Farai Chideya:
I'm going to wrap up with you, Dr. Carnethon. You are an expert in preventative medicine and we have covered many different intersections here. But, for women in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, who want to live to their eighties or beyond, how do we set ourselves up successfully? You've already talked about some things, but any final thoughts?
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
Yeah. I think my final thoughts on that are prioritizing yourself, really thinking about what brings you joy, what makes you happy. You can unapologetically prioritize getting good sleep each night. You can unapologetically prioritize saying, "You know, I need my downtime to be able to exercise or to be able to meditate." Because, the cornerstone of a healthy long life... And, you want a long life that's free from as many diseases and disabilities as possible. The cornerstone of that is healthy lifestyle. It's an excellent diet. It's regular physical activity and movement. And, it is sleeping for the recommended seven to nine hours per night.
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
So, I would say my final take home is prioritize your own healthy life, your mental health and your resilience so that you can make the best possible choices in the context in which you're living.
Farai Chideya:
Thank you, Dr. Carnethon.
Dr. Mercedes Carnethon:
Well, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed learning from you and as well from Elizabeth.
Farai Chideya:
Elizabeth, thanks so much for joining us.
Elizabeth White:
Likewise. Thank you for having me.
Farai Chideya:
That was Elizabeth White, author of 55, Underemployed and Faking Normal and a fellow at the incubator Ideas 42. And, Dr. Mercedes Carnethon, professor and vice-chair of preventative medicine at the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine.
Farai Chideya:
Thanks for listening to Our Body Politic. We're on the air each week -- and everywhere you listen to podcasts.
Farai Chideya:
Our Body Politic is produced by Diaspora Farms. I'm the executive producer and host, Farai Chideya. Our Co-executive producer is Jonathan Blakely. Bianca Martin is our senior producer. Bridget McAllister is our booker and producer. Emily J. Daly is our producer. Our associate producer is Natyna Bean.
Farai Chideya:
Production and editing services are by Clean Cuts at Three Seas. Today's episode was produced with the help of Steve Lack and Lauren Schild. And engineered by Archie Moore.
Farai Chideya:
And a big thanks to Tonya Mosley and her team at Truth Be Told. Truth Be Told is a production of TMI Productions and is produced by BA Parker, Ishea [EYE-sha] Brown, Phyllis Fletcher and Enrico Benjamin - in association with Fearless Media.
Farai Chideya:
This program is produced with support from the Ford Foundation, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, the Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Philanthropies, Democracy Fund, The Harnisch Foundation, Compton Foundation, the Heising-Simons Foundation, the BMe Community, Katie McGrath & JJ Abrams Family Foundation, and from generous contributions from listeners like you.